Succession may sound silly, but it has a point

[88GT]

This is huge, and I had missed thinking about this at all. Being off the "grid" would kill an economy. People would literally have to be rationed power.

Odd. I mentioned it on the first page of one of the ten other threads on the issue.

Why is there always the assumption that secession will result in lack of trade with neighboring lands? Do we shun Canada and Mexico? Does VA/MD shun DC? Does Italy shun the Vatican?

Because people look at the whole picture, not just the point where one state has become independent.

Follow me: No state will be allowed to secede peacefully. (No state with a positive influence on the US's economy anyway.) Ergo, the only means of secession will be through force. And a successful bid at secession would mean that the state-turned-sovereign nation bested the U.S. Just how do you think the U.S. is going to feel about that?

Now, each state is different. But no point is discussing other states since we live here. Indiana is land-locked with the exception of her northern border, which has a port accessed through waterways that are owned by the nation she just kicked the **** out of. The land surrounding Indiana also belongs to the nation she just kicked the **** out of. How do you propose Indiana imports/exports relevant products?

One way or another U.S. sovereign territory has to be crossed. The U.S. wouldn't have to lift a finger, just deny access. How long do you think Indiana would survive?

Of course, I think the U.S. would pummel Indiana in a military action. The disparity in available force brought to bear on the enemy is staggering. Even if you grant Indiana the use of all current U.S. military installations and materiel found within the state boundaries.

 

[88GT]

Its like this. You and your girlfriend or wife have been together for years lets 150years and one day because you have been abusing and puting her in the hole she says she wants to leave. So you give her the house and the land. Are you going to go out of your way to make sure she lives comfortable or cut her off and say suck it.

A better analogy would be that she takes it by force against your consent and you want it back since it was your paycheck that paid for most of it.

If you can't physically dominate her to get it back, you'll starve her out or make it uninhabitable.

 

[SaintsNSinners]

Odd. I mentioned it on the first page of one of the ten other threads on the issue.


Because people look at the whole picture, not just the point where one state has become independent.

Follow me: No state will be allowed to secede peacefully. (No state with a positive influence on the US's economy anyway.) Ergo, the only means of secession will be through force. And a successful bid at secession would mean that the state-turned-sovereign nation bested the U.S. Just how do you think the U.S. is going to feel about that?

Now, each state is different. But no point is discussing other states since we live here. Indiana is land-locked with the exception of her northern border, which has a port accessed through waterways that are owned by the nation she just kicked the **** out of. The land surrounding Indiana also belongs to the nation she just kicked the **** out of. How do you propose Indiana imports/exports relevant products?

One way or another U.S. sovereign territory has to be crossed. The U.S. wouldn't have to lift a finger, just deny access. How long do you think Indiana would survive?

Of course, I think the U.S. would pummel Indiana in a military action. The disparity in available force brought to bear on the enemy is staggering. Even if you grant Indiana the use of all current U.S. military installations and materiel found within the state boundaries.

Crane... What nasty little buggers do they have stored down there?

 

[hoosierdoc]

I think these talks are a great way to push the federalism concept on the population. Discussions are good

 

[ATOMonkey]

Discussions are good.

I wonder how much VX gas we didn't destroy when we said "oh yeah, we got rid of all that nasty stuff."

You know they're holding onto some of it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Succession may sound silly, but it has a point

Succession must take place or we will have have a new king.

 

[.45 Dave]

Many seem to think that secession would be one state going off on its own. I suspect we would have a new confederacy of seceded states. What the outcome would be or how trade with other countries might happen I have no information on, but a group of states would have a much better chance at surviving, plus they could hit the reset button, so to speak, and learn from past mistakes thus, hopefully, limit all the federal benefits that has made the U.S. a group of entitlement junkies and "gimme babies".

 

[lucky4034]

I believe you mean secession. Asking for secession from Obama's administration will probably win you the same results as it did under Lincoln. If people were so concerned about things, they should have turned out to vote. I can hear the wheels turning; "man, voting was to much trouble, but hey civil war NOW THERE is a good idea!"

Count me out.

What was turning up to vote going to do for them? Its a good thing Obama won... now maybe at least half the country will wake up and realize that we are in REAL trouble...

I agree with the OP. The fact that people are motivated to sign petitions to divide the country is a great opportunity for education.

The country is effed up and had Romney won, these people would be drinking cocktails pretending everything was just dandy. The other half of the country (the Obama supporters) would be disappointed, but nothing would come from it except a few hate riots....

 

[inrunner]

From the Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

While the Declaration of Independence is not law, it is a clear explanation of the justification for founding the United States and lays the groundwork for the Second Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The primary threat to any free state is it's own government, and the Founder unquestionably wrote this Amendment with that fact in mind.

No need to secede..

 

[downzero]

For who exactly?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Bobby]

I know there's the feeling that these people are whining babies who didn't like the result of the election, but I support their movement for this reason.

The majority of our citizens do not think it's possible that America will cease to exist at some point. They think it's a cash cow of benefits and paternal protection that will forever provide for them and their children through all stages of life.

I think a solid movement of states looking towards succession would possibly start some conversations about "what would happen if 10 states left America". Clearly the first to go would be the welfare system.

don't poo-poo it for the end result, promote the concept of it to educate the ignorant. It's much more likely that America will fall from suicide than from an invading force and these imbiciles need to realize it.

Instead of seccession, why not have states assert their sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment and NULLIFY any unconstitutional laws that come out of D.C?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxxJYbZktyQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The seccessionist movement has NO chance of succeeding. On the other hand, the nullification movement has been rapidly gaining steam in the last few years on a level not seen since the Civil War. Obamacare will be the most public test of nullification to date. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the seccessionist petitions were started by people who fear the growing nullification movement. Paint the seccessionist supports as "crazies" by those in the White House. Then those like me who support Indiana's right to assert itself under the Tenth Amendment will get lumped in there with those "loonies."

Result: Nullification gets nipped in the bud before it gets a chance to go mainstream.

 

[CarmelHP]

In 1989, all the same things were said concerning the impossibility of the Soviet Union ever breaking up. By 1991, it had slid into the dustbin of history. I'm not in favor of the dissolution of the U.S., but we can not dismiss the possibility so blithely.

 

[vzdude]

In 1989, all the same things were said concerning the impossibility of the Soviet Union ever breaking up. By 1991, it had slid into the dustbin of history. I'm not in favor of the dissolution of the U.S., but we can not dismiss the possibility so blithely.

Exactly......never say never

 

[strokin7.3]

Many seem to think that secession would be one state going off on its own. I suspect we would have a new confederacy of seceded states. What the outcome would be or how trade with other countries might happen I have no information on, but a group of states would have a much better chance at surviving, plus they could hit the reset button, so to speak, and learn from past mistakes thus, hopefully, limit all the federal benefits that has made the U.S. a group of entitlement junkies and "gimme babies".

This is my thinking. Hell this morning when I was reading the news that Indiana had the petition going it said there were 35 states total with the same thing. Why couldn't we take the 70% of America that is sick of all the BS that is coming out of DC and start fresh. Now granted I believe if it were only one or two states it would be a terrible idea, but 35 out of 50...

 

[CarmelHP]

This is my thinking. Hell this morning when I was reading the news that Indiana had the petition going it said there were 35 states total with the same thing. Why couldn't we take the 70% of America that is sick of all the BS that is coming out of DC and start fresh. Now granted I believe if it were only one or two states it would be a terrible idea, but 35 out of 50...

These are not state petitions. I don't know where anyone got that idea. It's a few people making them, and anyone can sign the petitions.

 

[strokin7.3]

These are not state petitions. I don't know where anyone got that idea. It's a few people making them, and anyone can sign the petitions.

I'm aware of that, but say that all 35 of those petitions (there may be more now, I dont know havent looked since 6am) got the 25000 signatures needed to get reviewed. Then what happens? I have not signed the petition but I think it is a damn good way to let the government know that we arent enjoying the route were on.

 

[hornadylnl]

I'm aware of that, but say that all 35 of those petitions (there may be more now, I dont know havent looked since 6am) got the 25000 signatures needed to get reviewed. Then what happens? I have not signed the petition but I think it is a damn good way to let the government know that we arent enjoying the route were on.

Over 6.3 million people in the state of Indiana. Washington is going to take note of .005% of them signing something?

 

[strokin7.3]

Over 6.3 million people in the state of Indiana. Washington is going to take note of .005% of them signing something?

how about 738,539 signatures total in just a couple of days? that is all of the petitions combined unless I missed a few. There are quite a few of them over the 25,000 signatures needed (texas is at almost 101k), and would be many more if people werent idiots and made multiple petitions for the same states.

 

[jbombelli]

I think someone should start a petition demanding Obama immediately resign.
That would have about as much effect.

 

[SmileDocHill]

I think someone should start a petition demanding Obama immediately resign.
That would have about as much effect.

They just passed that one around and 51% said keep him in.


If it happens that the red states become a new confederate of states I want to have a say in the new immigration policy.