Stop Insulting My Vote (a libertarian rant)

[The Meach]

There is a pretty strong group on here that seems very anti-3rd party. And as a libertarian I'm started to get tired of the "they stole votes away from McCain" complaint.

Dear Republicans, I DON'T believe in what you believe in. Sure I agree with you on some of your platform. But i disagree on almost the same amount.

I am for OPEN Immigration and am ANTI-English as the national language.

I am For Personal physical and personal rights, the government has NO RIGHT to tell me what i can put in my body or what I can do with it.

I support a level of government as defined in the United States Constitution.

I believe in the ideas of freedom, property rights, and individual rights.

I want government out of the boardroom AND out of the bedroom.

I want a government that doesn't define moral standards, redistribute wealth, control the economy, and divide people into separate factions along racial, ethnic or religious lines.

I have Deep un-consolable reservations with the Republican Party. Therefore i would Choose relative obscurity rather than betray my true beliefs and vote for the "guy who has the best chance of winning". Stop blaming Us because you couldn't beat Obama on your own.

/rant

 

[Joe Williams]

Then stop bitching about Obama, since you won't do anything constructive to keep him and his ilk out of office.

Of course, given that the Libertarian Party itself has slid as far left as the Republicans have, with the added bonus of a bunch of Anarchists and tin foil hat wearing whack jobs, perhaps some of us don't really see their candidates as all that different from what the other two parties are already offering. For all their bleating, Libertarians don't offer anything, other than social anarchy, that the other two parties don't already offer us. I left them and became Republican when it became clear the Libertarians had allowed themselves to be taken over by people unable to tell the difference between freedom and a childish wish to have no rules at all.

 

[Fletch]

There is a pretty strong group on here that seems very anti-3rd party. And as a libertarian I'm started to get tired of the "they stole votes away from McCain" complaint.

Dear Republicans, I DON'T believe in what you believe in. Sure I agree with you on some of your platform. But i disagree on almost the same amount.

I am for OPEN Immigration and am ANTI-English as the national language.

I am For Personal physical and personal rights, the government has NO RIGHT to tell me what i can put in my body or what I can do with it.

I support a level of government as defined in the United States Constitution.

I believe in the ideas of freedom, property rights, and individual rights.

I want government out of the boardroom AND out of the bedroom.

I want a government that doesn't define moral standards, redistribute wealth, control the economy, and divide people into separate factions along racial, ethnic or religious lines.

I have Deep un-consolable reservations with the Republican Party. Therefore i would Choose relative obscurity rather than betray my true beliefs and vote for the "guy who has the best chance of winning". Stop blaming Us because you couldn't beat Obama on your own.

What he said.

 

[mikea46996]

There is a pretty strong group on here that seems very anti-3rd party. And as a libertarian I'm started to get tired of the "they stole votes away from McCain" complaint.

Dear Republicans, I DON'T believe in what you believe in. Sure I agree with you on some of your platform. But i disagree on almost the same amount.

I am for OPEN Immigration and am ANTI-English as the national language.
Good God we will be overrun by lettuce pickers in months and it will be "For English press 2"

I am For Personal physical and personal rights, the government has NO RIGHT to tell me what i can put in my body or what I can do with it.
Yep.

I support a level of government as defined in the United States Constitution.
Yep.

I believe in the ideas of freedom, property rights, and individual rights.
Yep.

I want government out of the boardroom AND out of the bedroom.
This is a homo marriage thing ain't it? I don't care what they do but the word marriage is reserved for a union between a man and woman. Let them have unions or whatever you wanna call it. I think the guberment should have nothing to do with marriage anyway.

I want a government that doesn't define moral standards, redistribute wealth, control the economy, and divide people into separate factions along racial, ethnic or religious lines.
Yep

I have Deep un-consolable reservations with the Republican Party. Therefore i would Choose relative obscurity rather than betray my true beliefs and vote for the "guy who has the best chance of winning". Stop blaming Us because you couldn't beat Obama on your own.

/rant

We aren't that different, I will tell you if I thought a 3rd party had a chance in hell I would be all over it, I was just trying to keep Obongo out of office not put McCain in.

 

[Fletch]

Then stop bitching about Obama, since you won't do anything constructive to keep him and his ilk out of office.

Neither will you. McCain was of "his ilk". McCain voted right alongside his "friend across the aisle" in the TARP bailout, and argued vociferously for a command-and-control economy all through the rest of the campaign.

Of course, given that the Libertarian Party itself has slid as far left as the Republicans have, with the added bonus of a bunch of Anarchists and tin foil hat wearing whack jobs, perhaps some of us don't really see their candidates as all that different from what the other two parties are already offering. For all their bleating, Libertarians don't offer anything, other than social anarchy, that the other two parties don't already offer us. I left them and became Republican when it became clear the Libertarians had allowed themselves to be taken over by people unable to tell the difference between freedom and a childish wish to have no rules at all.

Then you misunderstand the nature of self-government.

 

[Fletch]

I want government out of the boardroom AND out of the bedroom.
This is a homo marriage thing ain't it? I don't care what they do but the word marriage is reserved for a union between a man and woman. Let them have unions or whatever you wanna call it. I think the guberment should have nothing to do with marriage anyway.

Then you agree with libertarians, generally speaking.

 

[mikea46996]

Then you agree with libertarians, generally speaking.

Read my post Fletch I already said we aren't that different....

 

[Fletch]

Read my post Fletch I already said we aren't that different....

I did. I just wanted to clarify on that one point. It's all good.

 

[Glockster]

There is a pretty strong group on here that seems very anti-3rd party. And as a libertarian I'm started to get tired of the "they stole votes away from McCain" complaint.

Dear Republicans, I DON'T believe in what you believe in. Sure I agree with you on some of your platform. But i disagree on almost the same amount.

I am for OPEN Immigration and am ANTI-English as the national language.

I am For Personal physical and personal rights, the government has NO RIGHT to tell me what i can put in my body or what I can do with it.

I support a level of government as defined in the United States Constitution.

I believe in the ideas of freedom, property rights, and individual rights.

I want government out of the boardroom AND out of the bedroom.

I want a government that doesn't define moral standards, redistribute wealth, control the economy, and divide people into separate factions along racial, ethnic or religious lines.

I have Deep un-consolable reservations with the Republican Party. Therefore i would Choose relative obscurity rather than betray my true beliefs and vote for the "guy who has the best chance of winning". Stop blaming Us because you couldn't beat Obama on your own.

/rant

If these are the positions of the Libertarian Party, then it has no appeal to me.

 

[The Meach]

Then stop bitching about Obama, since you won't do anything constructive to keep him and his ilk out of office.

Of course, given that the Libertarian Party itself has slid as far left as the Republicans have, with the added bonus of a bunch of Anarchists and tin foil hat wearing whack jobs, perhaps some of us don't really see their candidates as all that different from what the other two parties are already offering. For all their bleating, Libertarians don't offer anything, other than social anarchy, that the other two parties don't already offer us. I left them and became Republican when it became clear the Libertarians had allowed themselves to be taken over by people unable to tell the difference between freedom and a childish wish to have no rules at all.

you sir need to read the works of Lysander Spooner, Kevin Carson, and Murray Rothbard.

and as far as "tin foil hats" go...hi welcome to INGO, have you been here before?

I am for OPEN Immigration and am ANTI-English as the national language.
Good God we will be overrun by lettuce pickers in months and it will be "For English press 2"

As a descendant of Irish/Polish/Austrian immigrants I've seen this before. My Irish great grandfather and Grandmother were accused of trying to make the whole country speak Gaelic and stealing American jobs in St. Louis. And my Polish grandfather and Austrian Grandmother were accused of being spies for the USSR and were almost killed when their house was firebombed in Detriot. So as a 3rd/4th generation Immigrant I'm here to steal your Job.

Oh and if we want to get into the whole land/jobs/language stealing issue i'm sure my Cherokke grandmother would have a few choice words for you.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Then stop bitching about Obama, since you won't do anything constructive to keep him and his ilk out of office.

Of course, given that the Libertarian Party itself has slid as far left as the Republicans have, with the added bonus of a bunch of Anarchists and tin foil hat wearing whack jobs, perhaps some of us don't really see their candidates as all that different from what the other two parties are already offering. For all their bleating, Libertarians don't offer anything, other than social anarchy, that the other two parties don't already offer us. I left them and became Republican when it became clear the Libertarians had allowed themselves to be taken over by people unable to tell the difference between freedom and a childish wish to have no rules at all.

So, which are you for then? An oligarchy where the elite tell everyone else what to do or pure democracy where the 51% show up at the doors of the 49% & tell them what to do?

I guess that's fine, so long as you're in the elite or the majority.

Personally, I neither want elite rule nor mob rule. I want the rule of law. We call that a Republic.

Now, just as you've stated that the Libertarian Party® has broken from it's traditional values, so has the Republican Party®. Most Libertarians® have absolutely no idea what liberty is. Most Republicans® have absolutely no idea what a republic actually is. If the Libertarian® & Republican® parties knew their faceholes from their arseholes, I'd probably somehow be a member of both (or, they'd combine upon realization that they're the same). At least the Democratic Party® actually is adhering to its namesake & attempting to implement mob rule (child protective services?) with just a touch of elitism.

A video explaining the differences, in case you're interested.
The American form of government. [VIDEO]

Either way, please offer up evidence of 3rd/4th party or independent voters swaying a recent POTUS election. The 2008 election was unaffected. Obama won with more than 50% of all votes. Arguing that people, who are more patriotic than most Republicans® (read: values adhere much more closely to the Constitution), cost "the good guys" the election is a false argument in recent years.

 

[mrjarrell]

There's no difference between Socialist Party R and Socialist Party D. Combined they're just the Boot On Your Neck Party. At least libertarians offer you something more in line with true values and consistent principles. Reps and Dems offer nothing but more of the same. As for Joe, I seem to recall from another thread that he's working with the Census, so he's hardly a disinterested party when it comes to downsizing government. Libertarians have core principles that they stick to, through thick and thin. That says a lot more for them than for those who believe the lies of members of the BOYN Party.

 

[Phil502]

you sir need to read the works of Lysander Spooner, Kevin Carson, and Murray Rothbard.

and as far as "tin foil hats" go...hi welcome to INGO, have you been here before?



[/color]As a descendant of Irish/Polish/Austrian immigrants I've seen this before. My Irish great grandfather and Grandmother were accused of trying to make the whole country speak Gaelic and stealing American jobs in St. Louis. And my Polish grandfather and Austrian Grandmother were accused of being spies for the USSR and were almost killed when their house was firebombed in Detriot. So as a 3rd/4th generation Immigrant I'm here to steal your Job.

Oh and if we want to get into the whole land/jobs/language stealing issue i'm sure my Cherokke grandmother would have a few choice words for you.

If we had open borders there would be a change in this country to what is the norm in Mexico. I don't want that. Do we have press 3 for Polish, 4 for Austrian? How many Illegals are from Europe compared to South of our border? Unfortunately Mexico is largely a 3rd world country many of it's citizens are illiterate in their home language. Is this what we need flooding America? More people that need government assistance? This is the reality and that's what should be recognized not some ideal where everybody is equally good for this country we have here. The ideal is not the reality.

 

[The Meach]

If we had open borders there would be a change in this country to what is the norm in Mexico. I don't want that. Do we have press 3 for Polish, 4 for Austrian? How many Illegals are from Europe compared to South of our border? Unfortunately Mexico is largely a 3rd world country many of it's citizens are illiterate in their home language. Is this what we need flooding America? More people that need government assistance? This is the reality and that's what should be recognized not some ideal where everybody is equally good for this country we have here. The ideal is not the reality.

What ever happened to give us your tired, your poor, and your hungry?

 

[Paco Bedejo]

If we had open borders there would be a change in this country to what is the norm in Mexico. I don't want that. Do we have press 3 for Polish, 4 for Austrian? How many Illegals are from Europe compared to South of our border? Unfortunately Mexico is largely a 3rd world country many of it's citizens are illiterate in their home language. Is this what we need flooding America? More people that need government assistance? This is the reality and that's what should be recognized not some ideal where everybody is equally good for this country we have here. The ideal is not the reality.

You need to watch South Park Episode Player - Goobacks

Just like the free market, immigration too would right itself. Our government intervention is what creates the crappy situation. Take away the government assistance which draws the worst & the dumbest of other nations & open immigration would work quite well.

Get the government out of the way & things improve...or do you just believe that in regard to the 2nd Amendment & no other aspects of life?

 

[Fletch]

If we had open borders there would be a change in this country to what is the norm in Mexico. I don't want that. Do we have press 3 for Polish, 4 for Austrian? How many Illegals are from Europe compared to South of our border? Unfortunately Mexico is largely a 3rd world country many of it's citizens are illiterate in their home language. Is this what we need flooding America? More people that need government assistance? This is the reality and that's what should be recognized not some ideal where everybody is equally good for this country we have here. The ideal is not the reality.

Taken by itself, that plank of libertarian philosophy makes this an entirely reasonable objection. But when combined with the fact that libertarians would end all government welfare programs, both at the personal and corporate levels, it becomes apparent that your objection is to the idea of changing one thing while holding all else the same.

There is also the fact that at least one major subset of libertarians advocates the selling off of all public land, to be managed by private hands. Immigration under that setup would therefore be in the hands of property owners, who could charge fees for the right to immigrate, or simply deny immigration altogether, insofar as it involved trespass on their property. Extended over the long run, this would make immigration policy inherently conservative and protected by property rights rather than the whims of the electorate. In other words, it would properly remove control of immigration from the government and place it in the hands of those with the most at stake.

 

[Joe Williams]

There's no difference between Socialist Party R and Socialist Party D. Combined they're just the Boot On Your Neck Party. At least libertarians offer you something more in line with true values and consistent principles. Reps and Dems offer nothing but more of the same. As for Joe, I seem to recall from another thread that he's working with the Census, so he's hardly a disinterested party when it comes to downsizing government. Libertarians have core principles that they stick to, through thick and thin. That says a lot more for them than for those who believe the lies of members of the BOYN Party.

Worked for the Census, carrying out Constitutional duties.... the same Constitution many Libertarians spit on with "core values" of anarchy and no government at all.

 

[Fletch]

Worked for the Census, carrying out Constitutional duties.... the same Constitution many Libertarians spit on with "core values" of anarchy and no government at all.

I have yet to meet such libertarians.

 

[Joe Williams]

I have yet to meet such libertarians.

I've met many. There are more than a few on this board.

 

[mikea46996]

As a descendant of Irish/Polish/Austrian immigrants I've seen this before. My Irish great grandfather and Grandmother were accused of trying to make the whole country speak Gaelic and stealing American jobs in St. Louis. And my Polish grandfather and Austrian Grandmother were accused of being spies for the USSR and were almost killed when their house was firebombed in Detriot. So as a 3rd/4th generation Immigrant I'm here to steal your Job.

Oh and if we want to get into the whole land/jobs/language stealing issue i'm sure my Cherokke grandmother would have a few choice words for you.

Well as a 3rd generation descendant of Italian/Irish immigrants I feel that when both mine and yours came over we melded into American society, learned to speak English and became productive members of society. Plus as I am sure your descendants did mine came over LEGALLY!!!!

As for the job idea....

Keep working hard MILLIONS of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS depend on our welfare system...

FORGOT TO MENTION WHILE MY HERITAGE IS ITALIAN/IRISH I AM AND ALWAYS WILL BE 100% AMERICAN!!!!!