State sales tax on a service ?

[phylodog]

Wait a minute. How the hell is a standard, published doc fee lies, corruption, or evil?!?!

I do not follow...

Last 3 doc fees I've paid were $149, $324 (IL dealer), and $199. A drop in the bucket on a $50k+ deal, but build it into you pricing. You don't have to like it (I don't) but I can understand it and work around it...

Same as with Mike, answer the question I posted and I'll engage, otherwise, nah.

 

[Ingomike]

Why don't I pay a doc fee when I eat at a restaurant or buy something from Kroger?

Because some of those businesses used their freedom to choose not to but others do, some groceries chose to have a grocery bag fee, some restaurants choose to charge a credit card fee. Do you want to take those freedoms away also?

Why does this need to exist as a separate expense? Why can it not be rolled into the normal operating business expenses? Pretty sure those businesses have paperwork that has to be filled out as well.

As I answered earlier many business deals not car purchases have fees also, it is the freedom of the business to choose what they want to charge.

I'd love to hear a legitimate reason for it but I highly doubt there is one. That leaves only one logical conclusion and that is because it's ******** and just another way to squeak out a few more bucks from the customer. There's a reason car dealerships and sales people have the reputation they do, they've earned it.

Does exercising freedom need a reason you find legitimate? Do you want to take that freedom away also?

I'm not engaging with you unless you answer the question I posted. If you can provide an answer I'll reply to you, if not we're done.

The only question I see is the above post.

 

[WebSnyper]

Bait and switch. Walk if you want buy if you want.

Never let them know you like the car /truck. Then the hook is set. Never let them know you have the financial aspect already handled as often the loan can be better from them many times it is not.

I have only purchased one car new. Dad was/is a class a buyer from his GM employment but that is of course not what it once was.

All the others were I think pretty good deals but you have to be able to just walk away. Salesman “what does it take to make this happen”
Me : zero dollars more than X amount.

Then again my personal cars (not the wife’s) average many years old. Thus why I have a few.

I'm the negotiator in the family. I am always prepared to walk away. Wife decides what she wants, but I decide when, where and how much.

I tell anyone I'm dealing with that it's better for me financially if I don't do this deal.

 

[WebSnyper]

Agreed, however when I'm negotiating a OTD price (typically after I have the trucks price locked in), I'll get the purchase order sent to me, so you can see all charges, fees, etc down to the penny. If there's something unexpected we discuss it, before I head to the dealer.

This works for both new and used, although it's much easier when you're talking a new, ordered vehicle and it's an exact comparison.


Blame that on the American consumer and their "monthly payment" mindset.

Whether it's cars, homes, phones, you name it, the majority of consumers just want the monthly payment amount. Heck, someone upthread posted they asked for that during negotiations.

Me, I want the total price. Not payment, but total price.

Did exactly that on new car purchases myself (send me everything).

For used, I don't negotiate on cars unseen as I want to confirm the condition before bothering.

And yes, only negotiate on the OTD price.

 

[MCgrease08]

I find it interesting that people in general get worked up over a doc fee (which I agree is ) but don't bat an eye at buying a new car that loses 40% of it's value in the first 3-4 years.

 

[Lpherr]

We could be friends in real life. Depending on my mood though I might stick around and waste their time. I did that when I bought my 2012 Ram. It had been sitting on the lot for a year when I bought it in Aug of 2013. I was looking for a used F150 and they really wanted me to have that truck, it was very heavily discounted already. Told the salesman I'd pay $400/mo and no more and if they could make that happen I'd buy it. 45 minutes later, after the poor salesman had walked a bare path in the carpet from his desk to the finance guy's they got it done.

$398/mo for 7 years was the offer so I told them to give me a few minutes. I walked outside, called my credit union and secured a better financing deal over the phone. Walked back in, told them I'd be back with a check for the amount they had on their paper and left. They weren't happy but I'm sure it was a relief having that truck off the lot. Been a great truck.

Never negotiate the monthly payment. That sways the deal in their favor.
Always negotiate the OTD (out the door) price. Then they can figure out how to make their numbers work for them.
There are no surprises. The number is on the contract, you sign for that amount only, and drive home.

 

[firecadet613]

Same as with Mike, answer the question I posted and I'll engage, otherwise, nah.

I'm good with nah. It's an industry standard fee. Not a standard fee at the grocery store, etc.

I'm the negotiator in the family. I am always prepared to walk away. Wife decides what she wants, but I decide when, where and how much.

I tell anyone I'm dealing with that it's better for me financially if I don't do this deal.

And if you're like me, you enjoy it to save others money. Or you just like to deal. I used to buy new trucks more often than socks LOL.

For used, I don't negotiate on cars unseen as I want to confirm the condition before bothering.

And yes, only negotiate on the OTD price.

When I say used, I'm talking lightly used / like new. If conditions aren't as the pics show, I'm gone. But, that hasn't been an issue on the two used I've bought (including the one that the private seller traded in right before I contacted him, convinced the dealer to let me put $2k down on it and head up to complete the deal the next day)...

I find it interesting that people in general get worked up over a doc fee (which I agree is ) but don't bat an eye at buying a new car that loses 40% of it's value in the first 3-4 years.

Who's losing that much? Buy it for the right price and you're not going to lose that much, especially in this era with much fewer 1-3yr old vehicles are coming off lease.

3 times in 6 years, I've traded in a two year old, 60,000 mile truck for $10,000 less than I paid for it new.

This guy is an interesting follow, if your a car geek...

x.com

twitter.com

 

[phylodog]

Because some of those businesses used their freedom to choose not to but others do, some groceries chose to have a grocery bag fee, some restaurants choose to charge a credit card fee. Do you want to take those freedoms away also?

I'm getting something of value for a grocery bag fee as well as a credit card fee.

As I answered earlier many business deals not car purchases have fees also, it is the freedom of the business to choose what they want to charge.

As it is my freedom to call it a practice which exists for illegitimate purposes.

Does exercising freedom need a reason you find legitimate? Do you want to take that freedom away also?

I'm not a fan of government or HOA types so you've not heard me calling for the banning of anything nor the use of force to get what I want from others. That's your territory, I'm simply calling scum practices when I see them.

Sticking by my statement. Doc fees are complete ******** and nothing more than a slimy way to get more from someone than they agreed to pay initially.

 

[phylodog]

I am beginning to believe threads like this exist for the gathering of social credit data. I suspect I'm in the negative but we've got some members who have got to be well over the 800 mark.

 

[phylodog]

Never negotiate the monthly payment. That sways the deal in their favor.
Always negotiate the OTD (out the door) price. Then they can figure out how to make their numbers work for them.
There are no surprises. The number is on the contract, you sign for that amount only, and drive home.

I didn't give them the credit business. I honestly did not know at that time that financing a new vehicle for more than 5 years was an option. As soon as I found out it was, I borrowed from my credit union and bought it at the negotiated price.

Brand new 4 door, 400hp V8 4x4 for $28k. I wasn't passing it up and that truck is still going strong 11 years later.

 

[Ingomike]

I'm not a fan of government or HOA types so you've not heard me calling for the banning of anything nor the use of force to get what I want from others. That's your territory, I'm simply calling scum practices when I see them.

I have called for no restrictions or banning of other’s rights. You have indeed called for the taking of sellers rights in other threads and now seem to be calling for the right of business to charge the fees they deem necessary for their business.

Sticking by my statement. Doc fees are complete ******** and nothing more than a slimy way to get more from someone than they agreed to pay initially.

As is your right but why the need for name calling of a common charge from every dealer. As was said, just figure out how to deal with it.

 

[Ingomike]

I'm getting something of value for a grocery bag fee as well as a credit card fee.

You also get the value of the documentation perpetration with your details to take to BMV, of which I have never had any bad paperwork from a car dealer, that they have the freedom to implement. I’m sure someone here has, but it doesn’t seem common.

 

[phylodog]

You also get the value of the documentation perpetration with your details to take to BMV, of which I have never had any bad paperwork from a car dealer, that they have the freedom to implement. I’m sure someone here has, but it doesn’t seem common.

I’m going to see if I can form the most obnoxious opinion on something I can possibly fathom just to see a few of you come in to argue about it.

Still a sleaze ball tactic which is completely unnecessary yet remains for one reason only. Defend it until your heart’s content, won’t change what everybody knows.

I’ve somehow managed to register and title many vehicles without the assistance of someone I’m paying $250/hr to fill out the forms. Scumbags gotta eat too I suppose

 

[firecadet613]

I’m going to see if I can form the most obnoxious opinion on something I can possibly fathom just to see a few of you come in to argue about it.

Still a sleaze ball tactic which is completely unnecessary yet remains for one reason only. Defend it until your heart’s content, won’t change what everybody knows.

I’ve somehow managed to register and title many vehicles without the assistance of someone I’m paying $250/hr to fill out the forms. Scumbags gotta eat too I suppose

It's a standard fee charged by MOST dealerships. Not defending it, just a fact.

IMO a sleezeball tactic is something slid in at the last moment, unbeknownst to someone. A doc fee, imo, is like sales tax. To be expected on a purchase from a dealership.

Sucks if you can't negotiate it into your deal or let that piddly $200 cause you to walk from a deal...

 

[phylodog]

Sucks if you can't negotiate it into your deal or let that piddly $200 cause you to walk from a deal...

Why? If more people told them to **** up a rope over their stupid, unnecessary add on fees maybe they'd knock it off and we'd all be a lot better off. Not everything requires government intervention, a population unwilling to put up with nonsense can get a whole lot done. Most choose convenience over principle these days.

 

[Eric66]

Finance guy is paid by the dealership to do the docs, that's his JOB. Why should I pay him again? It's like being forced to tip an annoying bartender. If they don't like that I will find another dealership.

The doc fee is to cover the expense of the finance guy and other administrative staff who don't really sell cars. I agree it shouldn't be taxed, but if a politician ever figures out how the tax the processing of oxygen into carbon dioxide, we'll all be paying a tax to breathe.

Personally, I hate buying a vehicle from a dealer, and salespeople in general. I tell them up front what I am paying and that it's not negotiable. Need to talk to your manager or finance guy? Bring them out here and make them a part of the conversation. Doing otherwise is shady AF and eliminates any trust there was.

 

[armalitesheepdog]

There is a guy on the you tubes that was a GM for a dealership. And his channel is all about how to negotiate and the hustle they run on people. All aspects of the car buying process
I learned alot

 

[firecadet613]

Why? If more people told them to **** up a rope over their stupid, unnecessary add on fees maybe they'd knock it off and we'd all be a lot better off. Not everything requires government intervention, a population unwilling to put up with nonsense can get a whole lot done. Most choose convenience over principle these days.

Who is calling for government intervention over this? Learn how to negotiate and move on...

No add on fee's paid here and I've done more than my part to keep Detroit running...

The doc fee is to cover the expense of the finance guy and other administrative staff who don't really sell cars. I agree it shouldn't be taxed, but if a politician ever figures out how the tax the processing of oxygen into carbon dioxide, we'll all be paying a tax to breathe.

100%.

There is a guy on the you tubes that was a GM for a dealership. And his channel is all about how to negotiate and the hustle they run on people. All aspects of the car buying process
I learned alot

It's amazing how much info is out there if one truly wants to look. And, plenty of dealerships that discount deep on new vehicles with zero negotiations needed.

Laura GMC, Mark Dodge, can't think of Ford off hand. But, I've been able to buy locally for about the same price as those deep discounters (pre-covid - I haven't bought new post covid).

 

[phylodog]

Who is calling for government intervention over this? Learn how to negotiate and move on...

Someone accused me of doing so.

 

[amboy49]

Just thought I would post a follow up. Re: the sales tax charged on the doc fee, I started out looking up the sales tax division of the State of Indiana. The (youngish sounding) woman on the phone said I needed to call the BMV.

I called the BMV and they referred me to the "dealer division" of the Secretary of State.

I called the Secretary of State. They told me I needed to speak with the sales tax division. Back to the start. 45 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

I was informed there is a legal limit re: the amount that can be charged for a doc prep fee. That amount is $245.20. The dealer's doc fee was $245. I guess they gave me a $.20 break.

And . . . . .to now add another chapter. I've had possession of the vehicle since Tuesday of this week. I have discovered the a/c is not blowing cold air out of the driver's side dash vents. I don't know if I commented that I "purchased" the car on 8/8/24 but didn't pick it up until 8/14 because it took me a couple of days to move money around.

When I got the Car Fax - which I asked for on 8/8 but didn't receive until 8/13 when we picked up the car. The Car Fax revealed that the a/c had been worked on twice in the
last year.

The vehicle is a 2022 with 29,000 miles. It has a GM bumper to bumper warranty good for 36,000 miles or 5/2025 so my interpretation is the a/c is covered. Hoping it's not an inherent problem where a fix can't be found before the warranty expires.

Did I mention I HATE buying a car ! !