Stand your ground case from GA

[DIRTROAD]

Hard call to make sorry for all involved , I would not want to live with that call but you just don't know

 

[MiNDRiVE]

Just putting this out there. I'm 31 and my father is 72. He was in the Marine Corps but his health has deteriorated and he's lost about 40 lbs. Still to this day there's no way in hell I think I could take him. He may be old and frail looking but I know he could probably beat the snot out of me if he wanted (he did when I was 14 and thought I could take him). Moral of the story old dudes can be scary hell but the shooter shouldn't have left his house.

 

[HoughMade]

I understand how an older person with alzheimers could be a threat. My uncle started displaying signs of alzheimers when he was in his early 60s and he was in very good, strong physical condition. Certainly he could have been a physical threat in the wrong situation.

My only point is that the shooter exposed himself to danger and thereby escalated the situation. Having left the relative safety of the house, I have no idea if the shooting was justified. It very well may have been. However, if safety and survival are the key (and why wouldn't they be?) I am not going to give up any safety advantage of walls and doors unless I know there is someone outside in danger that I should help.

 

[SumtnFancy]

I'm going to investigate a noise, no matter where/what it is. I'm not afraid of the dark, or who/what may be hiding in it. I am not going to call the police unless there has been something worthy go down. Say what you will, tell me I am wrong for being my own guardian... But I refuse to be a part of the pussification of our country.

 

[SumtnFancy]

Clarification: I am in no way trying to sound like a tough guy. I would never go out of my way to confront a situation that could easily be avoided. I don't think I would have went outside in that scenario, I was making a broad, general statement. After re-reading my post I just felt the desire to round the edges a little as to not come across as a meathead.

 

[HoughMade]

Let's not stray too far from the facts of this as reported. This case is not about investigating an unknown noise. As reported, the shooter went outside to "confront" the guy out there.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Let's not stray too far from the facts of this as reported. This case is not about investigating an unknown noise. As reported, the shooter went outside to "confront" the guy out there.

I see you are new to INGO.

Motions to Change the Facts are common and liberally construed. Please familiarize yourself with the INGO Rules of Evidence and Forum Procedure.

 

[HoughMade]

I see you are new to INGO.

Motions to Change the Facts are common and liberally construed. Please familiarize yourself with the INGO Rules of Evidence and Forum Procedure.

I humbly apologize for my oversight. I should know better. I earned my AV convincing juries that the facts aren't necessarily the facts.

 

[SumtnFancy]

Let's not stray too far from the facts of this as reported. This case is not about investigating an unknown noise. As reported, the shooter went outside to "confront" the guy out there.

That was why I came back with the clarification. It came out as a partial thought that didn't really apply to the story. Sad situation any way you slice it, wish it would have played out differently. I had an elderly man with Alzheimer's take a swing at me because I was moving his furniture to a nursing home... He walked in the room and thought I was stealing it (even though I had been there for three hours already, and he had introduced himself twice.) He ended up with a cop's knee on his neck after his wife called for help when he got angry later in the evening. Still chokes me up, he was a great man before that.

 

[LarryC]

I can see both sides of this unfortunate incident. If I were on a jury, and the facts are as stated, I certainly would call this a "justified" shooting! - By the way I am 72, and I could well pose a threat to a 34 year old if necessary. The article stated the "old" man was in the mans yard AND that he rang his doorbell (at the BACK door at 4:00 AM in the DARK). Now, don't know about you but I can't very well tell some peoples age - I know some 30 year old men that certainly look over 60 due to drug abuse or other factors. I am also certain NO ONE here could ascertain the fact that the person was suffering from Alzheimers (could have just as easily be high on drugs). Another issue is that the shooter did try to verbally avoid confrontation, but the man continued to advance toward him without replying. NO one knows what was in the "old man's" thoughts. He may have believed the shooter was in HIS house and may have been advancing to attack him.

It is quite easy to state how you would have avoided shooting the man after reading all the information in the article, BUT look at this scenario as if it had occurred in your own back yard - A man (age / mental condition unknown), is seen in your back yard in the dark (4:00 AM). He rings your back door bell, when you open the door and enter the yard, he advances toward you while "mumbling" and refuses to stop! Sad to say but I probably would have shot him! I certainly have a great deal of sympathy for both families - it is a sad situation.

A somewhat similar situation occurred in Indy a few years ago when a young man from Japan, believing he was going to a house party pushed past the homeowner when he opened the door and entered the house. He was not armed nor did he speak English and (after the occurrence), it was determined he certainly meant no harm. Many here are certain to remember this incident - the homeowner shot and killed the young man. It became an international incident with the Japanese Embassy involved. However the homeowner was not prosecuted as it was considered self defense.

 

[EdC]

As I think about things like this, I like to break it down. I said before that I believe the applicable standard is whether or not a reasonable person in those same circumstances believe that he was in imminent danger of death or severe bodily injury?

I've been taught that the "imminent danger of death or severe bodily injury" usually requires the presence of (1) ability, (2) opportunity and (3) intent.

The following "facts" obtained through readings of various news reports)-Mr. Hendrix is outside his house where he legally has a right to be, in order to investigate because someone rang his doorbell and tried the doorknob at 4 am. Fiancee is inside on the phone with 911, and is frightened. Mr. Hendrix is frightened. Mr. Hendrix confronts a shadowy figure in his yard (Mr. Westbrook). Mr. Westbrook advances on Mr. Hendrix (not running or rushing, but walking towards him). Mr. Hendrix tells Mr. Westbrook to stop, more than once I believe. Mr. Westbrook does not answer, but continues advance. Mr. Hendrix shoots Mr. Westbrook 4 times until Mr. Westbrook goes down.

So would a reasonable person standing in Mr. Hendrix shoes believe that Westbrook had the intent to gravely harm him? I'd have to say yes, that would reasonable to infer from all the circumstances. 4 am, doorbell rings, doorknob tried, continues to advance when warned, etc.

Would a reasonable person believe that Westbrook hand the opportunity to gravely harm him? Again, I have to say yes. There they are in relatively close proximity in the yard, and Westbrook is advancing.

Would a reasonable person believe that Westbrook had the ability to gravely harm him? This is where I could go either way, but I lean towards yes. It can reasonable to infer that an unknown someone advancing on you under those circumstances wouldn't be doing so unless they themselves believed that they had the physical means to hurt you, even if you don't see a weapon. Unfortunately, without the presence of a weapon or verbal threats from Mr. Westbrook, ability, intent and opportunity to do grave harm are not the only reasonable inferences to be drawn from that situation.

Mr. Hendrix found out that, although his inferences might have reasonable, they were wrong.


Maybe that's some of the impetus behind some of the efforts to dial back the "stand your ground" laws. A defender can draw reasonble, but incorrect inferences from the circumstances, an innocent dies, and no crime has been committed by the defender. Although I think that the stand your ground laws should stay, sometimes the results are hard to swallow for me, like this case. Nobody had to die.

 

[danielson]

The problem with hindsight is, it makes you lose perspective.

Dont forget, this story could have just as easily played out, just like this one.
70-Year-Old Man Killed During Burglary | WBNS-10TV Columbus, Ohio

Mr hendrix had NO way of knowing which story was gonna play out here.

 

[02roadster]

Never get out of the boat.

NSFW: Never Get Out of the Boat - YouTube

I don't get it.

 

[Snapdragon]

I don't get it.

Don't escalate a situation unless it's absolutely necessary and you are willing to handle the situation you create.

 

[Tamara]

I don't get it.

Dude was in a house, safely behind locked doors, on the phone with the po-po (ie. "in the boat") and then he picked up his gun, left the phone with his GF, and went outside without a flashlight to confront the unknown figure. He "got out of the boat".

He may yet get eaten by a tiger.

(The reference makes a lot more sense if you've seen Apocalypse Now, which everybody should unless they're some kind of granola-eating gun-fearing commie.)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I don't get it.

Tonight's homework, Apocalypse Now. We will break off into discussion groups later.

 

[printcraft]

Tonight's homework, Apocalypse Now. We will break off into discussion groups later.

That's not a movie you can "get" with one viewing.

I'm not sure I get it now.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Joejuh shooter will not face criminal charges: Homeowner Who Shot Unarmed Elderly Man With Alzheimer's Wandering His Property Won't Be Charged | ThinkProgress

 

[phylodog]

Joejuh shooter will not face criminal charges: Homeowner Who Shot Unarmed Elderly Man With Alzheimer's Wandering His Property Won't Be Charged | ThinkProgress

Thank God he's not a cop or INGO would be redlining the bandwidth tach in no time.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Thank God he's not a cop or INGO would be redlining the bandwidth tach in no time.

This one, we'll have to commit to memory for the "if it wasn't a cop..." crowd.