Some things to keep in mind about Universal Background Checks

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  • HoughMade

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    Oct 24, 2012
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    Let me address some issues:

    N8RV- a "bonafide gift" is a legal term of art and is permanent by definition. A loan or letting someone shoot your gun, even your spouse or children is not permanent and by definition, not a "bonafide gift". Therefore, it is not covered by this exception and is a transfer requiring the background check unless another exception applies. Yes, you can give a gun permanently as the statute says, but you cannot exchange anything for it, sell it or even give them possession temporarily, as in letting them shoot it, without triggering the background check requirement.

    Also, as to that transfer "less than 7 days" noted above, that exception only applies in your own home or the curtilage of your home. It does not apply at someone else's home or anywhere else. Further, "curtilage" is another legal term of art. It does not apply to all of the property you may own. It only applies to the area of the property just outside the house. It specifically (under the common law) excludes open fields. Some people may shoot in their own yards within a few feet of the door, but most do not. They go out to a field or in the woods. In almost all circumstances, that will not be in the "curtilage" which means it is not covered by the exception and the transfer requires a background check.

    As for the "sporting" exception, Is the shooting range you go to incorporated? Do you know? Is the competition you go to "state approved" or conducted by a non-profit? Why should we even have to find out?

    As for hunting, that, at least, seems a little more logical.

    Remember- this applies to ALL TRANSFERS, not just ownership- it applies to loans, gifts and simply letting a person hold your gun. How do i know? The statute says it:
    For purposes of this subsection, the term ‘transfer’—
    (A) shall include a sale, gift, loan, return from pawn or consignment, or other disposition; and
    (B) shall not include temporary possession of the firearm for purposes of examination or evaluation by a prospective transferee while in the presence of the prospective transferee"
    Why does it include the exception for a "prospective transferee" to evaluate or examine? Because any other time you hand a person the gun, no matter how short the time, the background check requirement is triggered unless there is an exception.

    DON'T FORGET THIS- If you ever get accused of an improper transfer under this law, it will be your burden to prove that you fall under an exception. Under this law, the gvt. would have the burden to prove that the transfer took place without a background check- you would then have to establish the affirmative defense that an exception applies.

    ...ask yourselves- why should law abiding people have to prove that they were in the right when they let their brother in law shoot their new gun? Why should we have to prove we are legal when a buddy and you traded shotguns out shooting clays in a field?
     
    Last edited:

    brotherbill3

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    The commercials being run by Bloomberg's group can be very effective on people who generally support gun rights, but who are not deeply involved in the fight. My parents are pro-gun, but mentioned that the idea of "universal background checks" seem reasonable. However they, and most people, don't understand how far this can go.

    Here are some examples I used to great effect in explaining why the current proposed legislation cannot go forward:

    - It would be a felony for an uncle to give his niece of nephew his old .22 rifle, without having a background check run on them.

    - It would be a felony to take my kids to a relative's property, and then hand them a gun to target shoot while I am standing there with them, without having a background check done on them.

    - In fact, it would be a felony to go out to a friend's or relative's farm and hand anyone, friend, child, or spouse, a gun to shoot for even a few minutes, without having a background check run on them.

    - It would be a felony to hand a gun to anyone on your own property unless you were actually in the house or the area immediately around the house, without having a background check run on them.

    - It would be a felony to allow another experienced, competitive shooter to use your gun at a sanctioned shooting competition unless the competition was run by a non-profit.

    I took my kids and brother-in-law shooting at their place in the country this weekend and under the proposed law, I would have committed several felonies by allowing my properly supervised kids and brother-in-law shoot my guns on their property with their permission. When I pointed that out, they understood.

    - This proposed law is not at all reasonable.

    BTW- this is based upon my personal reading of Senate Bill 374 (and I am a lawyer), not any organization's talking points.

    Read this to the same end (but IANAL) ... and IIRC (read/not recall) S.649 copies this verbatim (not memorex) ...

    Can I borrow this assessment? I've made these same arguments; have a spot to share them more "widely" ...
     

    The Bubba Effect

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    May 13, 2010
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    High Rockies
    It's my gun, I will sell it to who I please, like I would my apple or my couch.

    It is totally unreasonable to require a citizen to obtain permission to buy and sell. Besides being a 2a issue, it's a property issue.

    The gov cannot keep it's own house in order. It cannot balance it's books, keep track of it's arms, or keep the border secure. How can I be expected to come hat in hand and ask them permission to sell my own property?
     

    N8RV

    Expert
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    Oct 8, 2012
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    Peoria
    Let me address some issues:

    N8RV- a "bonafide gift" is a legal term of art and is permanent by definition. A loan or letting someone shoot your gun, even your spouse or children is not permanent and by definition, not a "bonafide gift". Therefore, it is not covered by this exception and is a transfer requiring the background check unless another exception applies. Yes, you can give a gun permanently as the statute says, but you cannot exchange anything for it, sell it or even give them possession temporarily, as in letting them shoot it, without triggering the background check requirement.

    Also, as to that transfer "less than 7 days" noted above, that exception only applies in your own home or the curtilage of your home. It does not apply at someone else's home or anywhere else. Further, "curtilage" is another legal term of art. It does not apply to all of the property you may own. It only applies to the area of the property just outside the house. It specifically (under the common law) excludes open fields. Some people may shoot in their own yards within a few feet of the door, but most do not. They go out to a field or in the woods. In almost all circumstances, that will not be in the "curtilage" which means it is not covered by the exception and the transfer requires a background check.

    As for the "sporting" or "hunting" regulations-

    Is the shooting range you go to incorporated? Do you know? Is the competition you go to "state approved" or conducted by a non-profit? Why should we even have to find out?

    Remember- this applies to ALL TRANSFERS, not just ownership- it applies to loans, gifts and simply letting a person hold your gun. How do i know? The statute says it:
    Why does it include the exception for a "prospective transferee" to evaluate or examine? Because any other time you hand a person the gun, no matter how short the time, the background check requirement is triggered unless there is an exception.

    DON'T FORGET THIS- If you ever get accused of an improper transfer under this law, it will be your burden to prove that you fall under an exception. Under this law, the gvt. would have the burden to prove that the transfer took place without a background check- you would then have to establish the affirmative defense that an exception applies.


    Thanks so much for the clarification! I also noted that in your example you used the uncle/nephew-niece example, and that is specifically not addressed in the bill.

    How can the average citizen be apprised of these details? Joe and Josephine American think UBCs are just peachy because it will prevent any certifiable nutjob from waltzing into a gun show and just paying cash to a seller wandering the aisles. THAT particular example makes perfect sense to the average gun- or non-gun owner.

    However, if you presented the other, outlined stipulations and restrictions as you have noted above in the bill, I would think that any sentient being would say, "Wait a minute ... that makes no sense ..."

    HOW do we get this out there? Someone, somewhere has to have already compiled a list on a website that can be posted on FB and other social media sites.
     

    Bunnykid68

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    Mar 2, 2010
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    Cave of Caerbannog
    If for some reason this passes, we need to gather 10,000 people in one location and make a buttload of illegal trades and tell the government and everyone else to pound sand and come arrest all of us.
     

    KG1

    Forgotten Man
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    Jan 20, 2009
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    Yea, lets just round up law abiding citizens and make criminals and felons out of them for doing things that were previously lawful by transferring firearms by any means to other law abiding citizens and family members.

    There are already laws and penalties on the books to punish those who knowingly transfer a firearm to criminals or prohibited persons. Leave it be.
     
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