Socialism is great?

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    Jan 7, 2011
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    It's really cute that you can keep repeating the broken window fallacy as though it represents some great truth, but it remains the broken window fallacy. It is the cornerstone of understanding the impact of government interference in the market, and none of what you have said amounts to a hill of beans compared to that one grave error.

    I'm sorry that you can't conceive of the wealth that is being destroyed, and I'm saddened that you apparently don't give a **** for the people whose wealth is destroyed so that you can have your highways. Neither your ignorance nor your callousness makes you correct.

    All of the transportation scenarios you have posited can easily exist in a free market for transportation, which would necessarily be a more efficient market due to the price mechanism's regulation of the supply and demand curves. This is not conjecture, it's been demonstrated repeatedly in any number of texts, which I could recommend if I thought you had the slightest interest in understanding the truth.

    If you honestly believe that government provision of roads is an unmitigated good, then I don't understand why you are not similarly arguing for government provision of every other product and service in existence. After all, clearing out all of that unnecessary profit will surely maximize our wealth even further, if we are to accept your logic.

    But it really is not as simple as the broken window fallacy. The broken window fallacy illustrates how commerce alone does not equal production. Economic stimulation, however, can equate to more production and end consumer distribution of goods. Just the act of money changing hands does not stimulate production - but growing business practices that prove to generate production of goods that consumers consider valuable does. The broken window fallacy shows that money changing hands does not help the overall good, because the broken window was replaced - but to the end consumer that meant nothing - and it helped the glazier at the expense of the store owner. A system that benefits everyone in town, that is paid for by everyone it benefits, is not the same concept.

    But they did not come about on their own, and when they were needed, they were created. The free market did not put those in place by the time we needed them - they were too slow, and did not supply our demand. The free market, in turn, had already failed us at creating sufficient routes of transportation. You could argue "well, thirty years later they would have"... but thirty years later, is thirty years later. If the free market did not create the roads that in turn helped stimulate our economic boom, that boom may not have existed.

    In this case, it is not the glazier alone gaining benefit from the store keeper's broken window - it is many, many businesses and consumers gaining wealth from a system that companies had not capitalized on. It is not as simple as creating a demand for a service by taking from another.

    Ideals can be applied, but wealth in the end is a quantitative thing. This is not justifying stimulation of one business at the pain of another - it is the stimulation of an entire economy - when the businesses "hurt" did not quickly provide that ability. The transportation industry had already dropped the ball - compared to the federal government on this case - they were the dead wood.

    If a society can produce and distribute more goods to a community for a cheaper price - that is the merits of the free market.

    Maybe the toll roads where you live were cheaper than the toll roads I have been on - but in this instance I think when you take into account the large portion of wealth generated by transportation, more wealth is created by federal owned roads. Maybe the toll roads would be cheaper if the interstate did not exist - but again, that is arguing what we, by your words, "cannot see".

    Destroying something that never existed, in turn stimulating every efficient import/export company, can bring upon more wealth.

    The fact is, no company was quick enough to meet the needs of our economy. Our economy demanded easy, cheap transportation for defense.

    That demand was not met by the free market.

    The train systems can continue to profit without paying a tax - if the consumer chose to use trains. People preferring to pay the gas tax, and using the interstate - in the end is consumer choice.

    The difference between our current transportation system, and many other functioning portions of the free market - is lack of competition. Room for roads is a limited resource. Once a company were to own a road, why would it sell a profit generating machine? If it costs more to maintain, they can raise the rates - that will be passed onto the consumer, plus the margin of profit they require. Once a company owned a road - it would be like the patent that never expires. Once so many roads are built, another company could not walk in and build more roads to compete - the space alone would stifle competition. It is not the simple exchange of my good for your good - and the level of competition would not exist like in many areas of the free market.
     
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    dross

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    You've shifted your argument. Government interference in the market MAY make sense, but NEVER if the goal is efficiency or increased production.

    Perhaps the government in order to meet its obligation to provide defense might justifiably interfere with the market, but that's another argument entirely. To mix it with this argument is a disengenuous tactic.

    The free market isn't the answer to everything, that's why we have government in the first place. The government, however, can never be more efficient or more productive than the free market. It's an impossibility.
     
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    You've shifted your argument. Government interference in the market MAY make sense, but NEVER if the goal is efficiency or increased production.

    Perhaps the government in order to meet its obligation to provide defense might justifiably interfere with the market, but that's another argument entirely. To mix it with this argument is a disengenuous tactic.

    The free market isn't the answer to everything, that's why we have government in the first place. The government, however, can never be more efficient or more productive than the free market. It's an impossibility.

    The free market is still the producer...

    The government never took on that role.

    The stimulation of the market is still the main bulk of my argument...

    Actually, the original point before we even got onto the topic of transportation...

    Was that sometimes, social policy can be beneficial. That was really all I argued... that social policy, although demonized, can have merit - and the biased view that all socialistic policy is "evil" is not always correct.
     

    dross

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    Was that sometimes, social policy can be beneficial. That was really all I argued... that social policy, although demonized, can have merit - and the biased view that all socialistic policy is "evil" is not always correct.

    Social policy and government don't equate with social-ism. If you define any government policy that affects the market as socialism, you have skewed the argument. If that's your position, then any benefit of any government policy is proof of the value of socialism. Now we're arguing semantics.

    Argue that the highways were needed for defense and the free market couldn't or wouldn't provide that, and you may have an argument, I don't know. Argue that the government interference in transportation created a more productive solution than would have been created by the market and, well, if you still believe that after all that's been written above, I don't know what to say. That position has been thoroughly drubbed. Just stay down, Cool Hand Luke.
     

    lashicoN

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    Was that sometimes, social policy can be beneficial. That was really all I argued... that social policy, although demonized, can have merit - and the biased view that all socialistic policy is "evil" is not always correct.

    I disagree. I think socialism, at its base, is evil. It's a system that forces people to do things they may not want to do, and that is evil. Free will is righteous. Ask God. :)
     
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    Social policy and government don't equate with social-ism. If you define any government policy that affects the market as socialism, you have skewed the argument. If that's your position, then any benefit of any government policy is proof of the value of socialism. Now we're arguing semantics.

    Argue that the highways were needed for defense and the free market couldn't or wouldn't provide that, and you may have an argument, I don't know. Argue that the government interference in transportation created a more productive solution than would have been created by the market and, well, if you still believe that after all that's been written above, I don't know what to say. That position has been thoroughly drubbed. Just stay down, Cool Hand Luke.

    Well, we since we have already discussed the spectrums... Can we not at least agree that some socialist policy, even though not leading to true "socialism" is still social policy? For example, would Obamacare mandates be socialist policy? Would that make us a fully "socialist" society if the rest of the free market remains? Or would that just be a factor contributing to a "more" socialist society?

    Our government owning the interstate - is closer or farther from socialism?

    Applying every merit on paper of free market capitalism and "assuming" that would have played out for the benefit of the consumers to a larger degree of stimulation - is also reaching. It is arguing that the things you "cannot see" and did not happen would have been better - when so many factors apply in a situation of this magnitude, that you just cannot make that assumption easily. Those things did not happen, and would not have happened on the scale they did without social intervention. That aid in transportation, I believe, truly helped us a lot, and at that time would not have existed in the same extent.

    Free market capitalism only works in an environment ripe with competition - and without social regulation, that competition does not always exist.
     
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    Fletch

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    But it really is not as simple as the broken window fallacy. The broken window fallacy illustrates how commerce alone does not equal production.

    No, the broken window fallacy illustrates how the destruction of wealth diverts trade to new avenues that produce less wealth than would have otherwise been produced. It illustrates that you can't get more out than was put in. The interstate highway system is not a single broken window, it is millions of windows broken repeatedly and in perpetuity.

    But they did not come about on their own, and when they were needed, they were created. The free market did not put those in place by the time we needed them - they were too slow, and did not supply our demand.
    Of course they did. We had transportation prior to the interstate highway system. It was working, and it did every job we asked of it in commercial terms. The interstate system was a strategic military project. It had nothing to do with commerce, except as an ancillary benefit. We had roads aplenty for economic purposes a full century before the interstate system, and where they were insufficient, they were being built in accordance with supply and demand.

    It may be argued that the interstate system was necessary as a defense measure, but that is not an economic argument. Economics simply does not support your assertion of the interstate system being an unmitigated good.

    The free market, in turn, had already failed us at creating sufficient routes of transportation.
    No, when the free market was truly handling things, the transportation system was completely sufficient. Where it was not, it was growing. It was only after government got involved that things started falling apart, because now routes were planned according to political calculus rather than the law of supply and demand.

    If the free market did not create the roads that in turn helped stimulate our economic boom, that boom may not have existed.
    The inevitable busts that followed would not have existed either.

    In this case, it is not the glazier alone gaining benefit from the store keeper's broken window - it is many, many businesses and consumers gaining wealth from a system that companies had not capitalized on. It is not as simple as creating a demand for a service by taking from another.
    It is millions upon millions of repeatedly broken windows. This is like the old joke about the guy who was losing 10 cents for every unit sold but decided he'd make it up on volume.
    Destroying something that never existed, in turn stimulating every efficient import/export company, can bring upon more wealth.
    It cannot bring about more wealth than otherwise would have existed.

    The fact is, no company was quick enough to meet the needs of our economy. Our economy demanded easy, cheap transportation for defense.
    No, our politicians demanded transportation for defense. Our economy was doing fine without the interstate system, as displayed by economic figures immediately following WW2 before the interstate system came into being. GDP doubled in the 10 years following the war and before the Federal-Aid Highway Act was enacted in 1956.

    That demand was not met by the free market.
    The military demand was not. The economic demand was.

    The difference between our current transportation system, and many other functioning portions of the free market - is lack of competition. Room for roads is a limited resource. Once a company were to own a road, why would it sell a profit generating machine? If it costs more to maintain, they can raise the rates - that will be passed onto the consumer, plus the margin of profit they require. Once a company owned a road - it would be like the patent that never expires. Once so many roads are built, another company could not walk in and build more roads to compete - the space alone would stifle competition. It is not the simple exchange of my good for your good - and the level of competition would not exist like in many areas of the free market.
    The roads are already overbuilt. By market standards there are too many in most places, not enough in others. Had the free market been allowed to function, fewer roads would have been built, creating lower demand for real estate, and allowing plenty of room for competition.

    In the end, it all comes back around to the basic economic fact that more wealth is destroyed than is created when government intervenes in the market. As dross has said, it may be that there are other reasons to allow the government to interfere, but maximizing wealth or efficiency are not reasons that will work. You simply can't do it using government interference. You can redistribute wealth, you can take a lot from some and give a little to all (or the other way around), but you cannot increase wealth beyond that which would have been created.
     
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    You truly believe that our transportation industry opening up trade routes on the scale and speed that social policy brought upon...

    Did not stimulate the creation of any wealth?

    Businesses and individuals as a whole, did not prosper more because of that?

    I can buy they built too much. I can buy their is waste involved.

    What I cannot buy is the idea that in no way shape or form can that stimulate economic growth.

    The people with broken windows, are also the glaziers in this situation. We all benefit... not someone else alone who we are paying.
     

    lashicoN

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    You truly believe that our transportation industry opening up trade routes on the scale and speed that social policy brought upon...

    Did not stimulate the creation of any wealth?

    Businesses and individuals as a whole, did not prosper more because of that?

    The government simply butted in the right place at the right time.

    We had the tools and the know-how. If government is comprised of people, and people planned and created our transportation industry, then people without government could and would have created the same transportation industry...actually we would have had a better one, a less wasteful one based on reality.
     

    Fletch

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    Well, we since we have already discussed the spectrums... Can we not at least agree that some socialist policy, even though not leading to true "socialism" is still social policy? For example, would Obamacare mandates be socialist policy? Would that make us a fully "socialist" society if the rest of the free market remains? Or would that just be a factor contributing to a "more" socialist society?

    Our government owning the interstate - is closer or farther from socialism?

    Policies which inhibit the free market pull us in the direction of socialism. Policies which do not pull us in the direction of the free market.

    Applying every merit on paper of free market capitalism and "assuming" that would have played out for the benefit of the consumers to a larger degree of stimulation - is also reaching.

    Now you're subclassing people. The argument is not that "consumers" would be better off. It is that wealth would be maximized for all. You cannot break a man's legs, then hand him crutches, and expect him to thank you for his mobility.

    It is arguing that the things you "cannot see" and did not happen would have been better - when so many factors apply in a situation of this magnitude, that you just cannot make that assumption easily.

    This assumption is not made easily. It is the product of two centuries of economic thought. It didn't just come up out of thin air.
    Those things did not happen, and would not have happened on the scale they did without social intervention.

    This is true. The argument is that the scale they happened was unnecessarily large, and overshot the actual demand, to the detriment of all who were robbed to pay for it.

    That aid in transportation, I believe, truly helped us a lot...

    I believe that you believe that.

    Free market capitalism only works in an environment ripe with competition - and without social regulation, that competition does not always exist.
    You've got cause and effect reversed. Social regulation is what kills competition.
     
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    The government simply butted in the right place at the right time.

    We had the tools and the know-how. If government is comprised of people, and people planned and created our transportation industry, then people without government could and would have created the same transportation industry...actually we would have had a better one, a less wasteful one based on reality.

    Maybe.. maybe not.

    That is the problem quite a bit of the time. The free market is held in check by competition, but driven by greed.

    Greed yields incentive, but only when competition exists does the end consumer reap the best possible benefit.
     
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    Social regulation keeps Wal-Mart from selling goods lower than they can purchase them, thus driving their competitors out of business.

    While on the short term this seems like competition... when the competitor is out of business.. what happens?

    Who pays?
     

    Fletch

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    You truly believe that our transportation industry opening up trade routes on the scale and speed that social policy brought upon...

    Did not stimulate the creation of any wealth?

    I don't believe I have to say this YET AGAIN. YES, WEALTH WAS CREATED. I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WASN'T. Holy ****ing ****, I can't believe I've got to repeat this in every mother****ing ******* post because you simply WILL. NOT. ****ING. PAY. ATTENTION.

    Seriously, it's been what? 10 pages worth of posts now? Roughly half of them mine? And every time you've made this ****ing idiotic assertion about my beliefs, I have patiently repeated that wealth was in fact created, but that it cannot have been more wealth than would otherwise have been created. I don't know how many ******* times I have to say it. Christ on a cracker, it's like talking to a ******* 2 year old.
     
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    I don't believe I have to say this YET AGAIN. YES, WEALTH WAS CREATED. I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WASN'T. Holy ****ing ****, I can't believe I've got to repeat this in every mother****ing ******* post because you simply WILL. NOT. ****ING. PAY. ATTENTION.

    Seriously, it's been what? 10 pages worth of posts now? Roughly half of them mine? And every time you've made this ****ing idiotic assertion about my beliefs, I have patiently repeated that wealth was in fact created, but that it cannot have been more wealth than would otherwise have been created. I don't know how many ******* times I have to say it. Christ on a cracker, it's like talking to a ******* 2 year old.

    Yup. That is me, I am two years old.

    Wealth is created, and most of the people that pay for the creation reap the benefit. Maybe they paid more than they would have, but they reaped the benefits of the enactment of a social policy.

    Maybe, if the world was different in the past, things would have been different and they would have created more wealth. Maybe they would have created the same wealth and it would have cost less. Then again, maybe not...
     

    lashicoN

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    Maybe.. maybe not.

    That is the problem quite a bit of the time. The free market is held in check by competition, but driven by greed.

    Greed yields incentive, but only when competition exists does the end consumer reap the best possible benefit.

    Yes! This is exactly 100% true. But what you've got to see is that when government strolls into town and opens up a FEDups across from a UPS store, they can always sell their products at a lower cost, because they are funded by tax dollars, not by being a good company with a steady, real, revenue stream.

    The government always stomps out competition. And we all lose because of it. Do you have the option to take your stolen SS money and put it into a competitors system?
    Seriously, free will + real competition = :patriot:.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    False. socialism is actually a very good theory. Socialism (as a theory) involves all the people in the system working together towards the common good. Socialist countries give equal treatment to all citizens, regardless of income, race, gender or creed, in medicine, education and culture. socialism is also what the Apostles used to set up the early Christian communities mentioned in Acts. so unless you're saying that the apostles and Jesus are evil, know what you're talking about and come back when you know what you're talking about.

    Socialism is great. the practice of it is flawed, because it A) is run by people who are influenced by greed and B) gives too much power to the government.

    good theory. bad practice.



    Ever read the book "the Acts of the Apostles" in the bible? worked well for them, cuz they were governed by a common goal that was stronger than their own greed.

    The early Church also freely gave their resources to the community; they weren't taken from them via taxation; which may be the dividing line between "workable socialism" and the governmental theft system called "socialism".
     

    Fletch

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    The early Church also freely gave their resources to the community; they weren't taken from them via taxation; which may be the dividing line between "workable socialism" and the governmental theft system called "socialism".
    Exactly right. When Ananias and Sapphira were killed, Peter explicitly stated that they had the right to keep their wealth for themselves. It was in lying about how much they gave that they sinned and were punished.
     

    dross

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    Yes! This is exactly 100% true. But what you've got to see is that when government strolls into town and opens up a FEDups across from a UPS store, they can always sell their products at a lower cost, because they are funded by tax dollars, not by being a good company with a steady, real, revenue stream.

    The government always stomps out competition. And we all lose because of it. Do you have the option to take your stolen SS money and put it into a competitors system?
    Seriously, free will + real competition = :patriot:.

    Slight correction. Government can sell it for a lower PRICE, but the COST was actually more.
     

    dross

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    Yup. That is me, I am two years old.

    Wealth is created, and most of the people that pay for the creation reap the benefit. Maybe they paid more than they would have, but they reaped the benefits of the enactment of a social policy.

    Maybe, if the world was different in the past, things would have been different and they would have created more wealth. Maybe they would have created the same wealth and it would have cost less. Then again, maybe not...

    The two year old part has nothing to do with intelligence or with disagreeing, the two year old part is in continuing to argue the same point as if it hasn't been addressed. At least move on and address the position that's been represented to you, not the one it's easier for you to argue against.

    Wealth was created by the highway system. Just not as much as would have been created by allowing the free market to work. That's indisputable as economic fact, unless you're a Keynesian or a Marxist (but I repeat myself) in which case, a lot of what your'e saying begins to make sense, in context.

    You've used some words that give away why I think you're having so much trouble with this. One of them was "greed." When I hear that, I hear a person having an internal moral dilemna. I think you're having trouble embracing the free market completely because you're holding on the concept that altruism is a superior concept.
     
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