So what's the deal with M4Carbine.net?

[esrice]

River Rock AR......

Is that what this is?

 

[opus1776]

As a dig @ M4's site the the "mythical" chart about M4 carbines, someone created this:

M4-ply Comparison Chart of Major TP Brands :

M4-ply Comparison Chart of Major TP Brands - AR15.Com Archive


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"Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" K. Moss

You can NEVER be too rich or too thin.

Life is not a journey, but a series of unplanned detours...

Perfection: is not a goal---it's a demanded expectation.

 

[byggpoppa]

There are better places to spend your time. That is the PC version of what I want to say... but esrice has me "trained well" so I'll just say that, lmao.

 

[LPMan59]

well i've posted thrice on WEVO and haven't been torn up by a mod yet...

 

[Destro]

I've been a member there for about a year. I've never asked a question as I've always been able to find an answer using search. Their property, their rules/culture/etc. I think it's a good resource.

ive never made a post there, but the info is top notch

 

[esrice]

That is the PC version of what I want to say... but esrice has me "trained well" so I'll just say that, lmao.

lol

"PC" rep inbound!

 

[Txlur]

I've been a member there for about a year. I've never asked a question as I've always been able to find an answer using search. Their property, their rules/culture/etc. I think it's a good resource.

This. M4C is tops in my book. When I was ordering my first AR, and building my second, there was no question that couldn't be answered with a quick search. Just don't complain when you find out you could have done better with your $$ when choosing your AR.

The people offering information there are clear, and from what i've found, spot on.

What's not to like? Read their rules, answer your own questions with a search. It's a reference site, think of it like a sort of digital encyclopedia.

I've also had very, very good luck buying items from their EE. People on that site are very professional.

 

[thecolter]

While the site has good information, the conduct and sense of 'brand elitism' of some of it's most active members in regards to those with 'inferior' weapons is rediculous. They do literally answer most questions with "buy a Colt or BCM". You are lambasted for bringing up the fact that you might own a DPMS, Bushmaster, or some other AR that is not the holy grail Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense that must be each blessed by a high priest before they leave the factory as they are immune to failure.

They seem to forget that an overwhelming majority of AR owners use them to punch holes in paper from a static position on a one-way range. That and the fact that you ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE A PERSONALLY-OWNED WEAPON TO COMBAT, as many of them seem to think with "your life may depend on your decision in rifles".

 

[Txlur]

While the site has good information, the conduct and sense of 'brand elitism' of some of it's most active members in regards to those with 'inferior' weapons is rediculous. They do literally answer most questions with "buy a Colt or BCM". You are lambasted for bringing up the fact that you might own a DPMS, Bushmaster, or some other AR that is not the holy grail Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense that must be each blessed by a high priest before they leave the factory as they are immune to failure.

They seem to forget that an overwhelming majority of AR owners use them to punch holes in paper from a static position on a one-way range. That and the fact that you ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE A PERSONALLY-OWNED WEAPON TO COMBAT, as many of them seem to think with "your life may depend on your decision in rifles".

Then why don't you spend your time shooting that squirt gun game at the fair, that's the same as hitting targets with a projectile on a one way range, and far less dangerous. Who cares what the "overwhelming majority" thinks. Any shooter should know the facts, and demand the best possible equipment within their price range, not only for their safety, but those who depend on them.

Their particular brand of "elitism" is backed by testing and evidence. I do inspection for a living, and have had years of experience doing magnetic testing. I think having the important parts of a rifle tested for flaws could be a very good thing for the consumer. That's just one example.

Also, seriously? Last time I checked an AR-15 was a battle rifle, no, and what happens if one needs to defend himself or herself? Is that considered combat?

If people are REALLY just thinking about ONLY plinking paper when they purchase a BATTLE RIFLE that costs 28c + per shot for commercial ammo, then they are missing the point, or wasting their money. I can see NO REASON AT ALL to shoot anything but .22lr for exclusive paper use, based on cost alone.

The holes are the same size.

 

[andfc]

In addition to being a great resource, INGO is an inclusive community, but I think of M4C as a group of experienced people talking among themselves that I get to eavesdrop on. It's not really serving the same open community purpose as INGO. For you tech guys, I think of it like the old Hacker News, where the contributors and moderators are mostly from a small group of experts.

Recently they added a (heavily moderated) section for "Ask the SME" Ask the SME - M4Carbine.net Forums where Subject Matter Experts answer questions - guys like Larry Vickers and Jason Falla. Those guys would get drowned out elsewhere, or more likely, just not post.

 

[cgbills]

Then why don't you spend your time shooting that squirt gun game at the fair, that's the same as hitting targets with a projectile on a one way range, and far less dangerous. Who cares what the "overwhelming majority" thinks. Any shooter should know the facts, and demand the best possible equipment within their price range, not only for their safety, but those who depend on them.

Their particular brand of "elitism" is backed by testing and evidence. I do inspection for a living, and have had years of experience doing magnetic testing. I think having the important parts of a rifle tested for flaws could be a very good thing for the consumer. That's just one example.

Also, seriously? Last time I checked an AR-15 was a battle rifle, no, and what happens if one needs to defend himself or herself? Is that considered combat?

If people are REALLY just thinking about ONLY plinking paper when they purchase a BATTLE RIFLE that costs 28c + per shot for commercial ammo, then they are missing the point, or wasting their money. I can see NO REASON AT ALL to shoot anything but .22lr for exclusive paper use, based on cost alone.

The holes are the same size.

M4C is a great site with a lot of great information. There is no better site out there for information and technical knowledge on the AR platform. You can find almost any answer to an AR question over there. Also I find it refreshing that there is not 4 topics started in a week on the exact same topic. Last I don’t understand why so many people get upset when told that their entry level AR is not as reliable/on the same level as a high end AR. The fact of the matter is these “elitist” ARs go through testing and assembling processes that make them more reliable; something that is backed by real world experiences. Don’t be upset when someone tells you that for a little more money you could have got a better AR. It maybe a forum that is not for all, but it is their forum and their rules.

 

[thecolter]

Then why don't you spend your time shooting that squirt gun game at the fair, that's the same as hitting targets with a projectile on a one way range, and far less dangerous. Who cares what the "overwhelming majority" thinks. Any shooter should know the facts, and demand the best possible equipment within their price range, not only for their safety, but those who depend on them.

Their particular brand of "elitism" is backed by testing and evidence. I do inspection for a living, and have had years of experience doing magnetic testing. I think having the important parts of a rifle tested for flaws could be a very good thing for the consumer. That's just one example.

Also, seriously? Last time I checked an AR-15 was a battle rifle, no, and what happens if one needs to defend himself or herself? Is that considered combat?

If people are REALLY just thinking about ONLY plinking paper when they purchase a BATTLE RIFLE that costs 28c + per shot for commercial ammo, then they are missing the point, or wasting their money. I can see NO REASON AT ALL to shoot anything but .22lr for exclusive paper use, based on cost alone.

The holes are the same size.

I've been to an actual combat zone, and carried an actual 'combat rifle' every day for over a year on a two way range. Having a weapon in those conditions compared to having a weapon back home are VERY DIFFERENT. Any type of shooting I've done back here in Indiana with my personal rifle has been for recreation. Simple fact. If this changes, I'll be drawing a weapon from the arms room again.

Yes, you could find yourself in a self defense situation and yes, this would be a form of combat. However, I highly doubt you'll find yourself in a prolonged firefight situation under these types of circumstances where the benefits of the top tier AR15's will show themselves. At most you'd be firing a couple rounds to stop your assailant. Although not anywhere near a preferred weapon in this type of scenario, even a .22LR with proper shot placement can do the same thing.

I'm curious as to what battle you're fighting here in Indiana and what you're shooting at that isn't some sort of inanimate object aside from possible hunting (which I have rarely seen animals shoot back). The reality of it is that most of these rifles as owned by civilians (including myself) are recreational rifles. Although the AR15 was designed as a battle rifle, it is not used as such in it's civilian capacity. If it is, it's most likely for illegal activities that any responsible gun owner is not going to participate in. Now, if you are someone such as LEO or a contractor who will actually use the AR15 for it's intended purpose, then by all means, get the absolute best you can get. I understand that way of thinking for those individuals and fully support it. If you're military, you get what Uncle Sam gives you.

There are many people with many different types of firearms who shoot primarily paper targets. You know why? Because it's their preference to do it and their choice. Who has any right to criticize them for it? If someone wants to spend $10,000 on a Barrett M82A1 along with the $5 per trigger pull to shoot at a paper target, then let them do it. It's their money and none of your business. Same goes with any firearm / caliber combination. I'm not going to criticize someone for their personal decision.

Also, did you happen to notice that competitive shooting such as USPSA, IDPA, 3-gun (AR15's are big there), and many more use primarily cardboard and/or steel targets? Should they be using .22LR too since all they need is a hole or a ding sound?


I'll reiterate what I said before, M4C has a ton of great information. It's just that the criticism sometimes begins to be too much.

 

[Destro]

The "elitest" attitude comes out when people who have a 2nd tier rifle wanna argue that theirs is just as good a tier 1.

Nobody cares if you own a Plum Crazy 15 that shoots .25moa and has fired 100,000 rounds on full auto non stop. It does not change the fact that it's not a top shelf rifle. it's a happy coexistance until somebody gets their feelings hurt, and your not gonna hurt a colt owners feelings no matter how much you try

 

[cgbills]

The "elitest" attitude comes out when people who have a 2nd tier rifle wanna argue that theirs is just as good a tier 1.

Nobody cares if you own a Plum Crazy 15 that shoots .25moa and has fired 100,000 rounds on full auto non stop. It does not change the fact that it's not a top shelf rifle. it's a happy coexistance until somebody gets their feelings hurt, and your not gonna hurt a colt owners feelings no matter how much you try

THIS!

 

[D2VW14_20]

The "elitest" attitude comes out when people who have a 2nd tier rifle wanna argue that theirs is just as good a tier 1.

Nobody cares if you own a Plum Crazy 15 that shoots .25moa and has fired 100,000 rounds on full auto non stop. It does not change the fact that it's not a top shelf rifle. it's a happy coexistance until somebody gets their feelings hurt, and your not gonna hurt a colt owners feelings no matter how much you try

Wow, Really?????

So if someone goes on there and posts something with respect to their Oly, DPMS, etc a member on M4C isnt going to come out and say its crap or he should have bought a Colt, DD, Nov, etc. BULL CRAP! Think you need to open both eyes on that, not just the one you want to see out of.

I have a Frankenstein. RRA Lower, and a Spikes Lower, and a Colt M4 Upper and now a Colt barrel. Guess what, give that to my 12 year old nephew, shoot like crap. Wanna know why? Person behind the gun isnt very skilled. Guess what, take an Oly and put a marksman behind it, guess what, bet he'll shoot better than a normal civilian with a Colt, Noveske, etc.

Tier 1 owners feelings may not be hurt, but their pocket books hurt a lot more than those with the "inadequate" brands. And guess what, I would say its safe to say, more often than not, your using it for the same thing. Paper and Steel. And Id say its safe to say, they both make the impact in the same fashion and end with the same result.

Just saying.

 

[cgbills]

See that is the common misconception that you have to pay big bucks to get into a tier 1 rifle, when it only costs a little more.

 

[D2VW14_20]

I dont think 2x+ the price is a common misconception.

 

[thecolter]

Just a quick search of parts puts a 16" M4 profile carbine at:

BCM: (Prices straight from the BCM website)
Complete Upper: $400
Complete Lower: $360
BCG: $140
Standard Charging Handle: $23
Carry Handle: $110

Total Cost: $1033


Palmetto State Armory: (Prices straight for the PSA website)
Rifle Kit: $490
Lower: $80
Carry Handle: $70

Total $640


So, for nearly $400 less, someone could have a rifle that is set up the same as the higher priced BCM. They could use the saved cash on ammo (more time pulling the trigger behind the rifle) or optics / etc...

Now, would this person want to take the PSA rifle to war? maybe not. Would they take the BCM to war? most likely not as they are a civilian and it just won't happen.

Nothing at all against BCM. They are a great company and make great rifles and parts. I use some of their parts in my rifle and have nothing but good things to say about them. This goes for the other 'top tier' companies as well. It's just that the average joe (which most civilian shooters are, admit it or not) will not notice a difference between the two rifles with what he'll be doing with it. So why shouldn't he save some money?

He shouldn't be lambasted if he chooses to go with the 'sub standard' PSA over the 'top tier' BCM either... which I'm sure what would happen if he posted such over at M4C.

 

[cgbills]

He shouldn't be lambasted if he chooses to go with the 'sub standard' PSA over the 'top tier' BCM either... which I'm sure what would happen if he posted such over at M4C.

Well your assumption is wrong. Here are several threads over at M4C that deal with PSA and there is no "lambasting" going on. Actually there are several people that praise PSA.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89476
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86983
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87956
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89578&page=2

PSA is an anomaly in the AR world and new. They make stuff that is near top tier for a great price. This pricing most likely will not continue as they gain more name notoriety. They are following a very specific business model. IF the prices do stay as they are, it will be great for the industry

Let us do a little more apples to apples comparison.

Lower End
Stag Model 1 $761.03
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2SA1-1.html

DPMS AP4 $845.76
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61619-55.html

Bushmaster M4A3 $947.01
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2BM90289-1.html



Top Teir Rifles
BCM Middy 16 $981.24
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2BCM750121-1.html

DD M4 $967.98
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2DD20015-1.html

That is not double the cost difference, we are talking $100-$200. For just a little more money you can get into a top tier rifle that if far more reliable and have the peace of mind that your rifle will perform when you need it to.

 

[Txlur]

I've been to an actual combat zone, and carried an actual 'combat rifle' every day for over a year on a two way range. Having a weapon in those conditions compared to having a weapon back home are VERY DIFFERENT. Any type of shooting I've done back here in Indiana with my personal rifle has been for recreation. Simple fact. If this changes, I'll be drawing a weapon from the arms room again.

You're a stand up guy, it seems. Thanks for this.

Yes, you could find yourself in a self defense situation and yes, this would be a form of combat. However, I highly doubt you'll find yourself in a prolonged firefight situation under these types of circumstances where the benefits of the top tier AR15's will show themselves.

Ok.

"highly doubt" So, it could happen that I would use a rifle to defend myself, maybe, sometime. Gotcha.

"benefits" So, a rifle that functions and has been tested and assembled in the correct way is a benefit versus a rifle that may just not have the right components and testing? I don't think that I would want any rifle of mine to have a problem in any situation, even against paper. Sometimes I let others try out my rifles, is it a "benefit" then that I feel they run 100% and don't have to help a new shooter clear problems and failures, even though I have shown them what to do in that situation. It can still be confusing when a rifle fails to operate like a new shooter thinks it will operate. You do think that a tested rifle is better than a non-tested one, right (I would think so, based on the idea of 'benefits'). Is being able to shoot heavier grain ammunition a benefit of a 1/7 16" barrel? What about a high round count class, is that "prolonged" enough fire to send a lesser rifle to the repair bench? I've heard (here, look, I'm not saying that I have the experience of a rifle failing at a class) of this happening. So what do you really think - I think those benefits should be part of a normal AR-15 experience.

I'm curious as to what battle you're fighting here in Indiana and what you're shooting at that isn't some sort of inanimate object aside from possible hunting (which I have rarely seen animals shoot back). The reality of it is that most of these rifles as owned by civilians (including myself) are recreational rifles. Although the AR15 was designed as a battle rifle, it is not used as such in it's civilian capacity.

I didn't claim to be part of any ongoing battle, or a soldier, or have any type of experience at all on a 2 way range. I have never fired on anything that wasn't paper, deer, or duck. Go find where I stated that I did in my post.

But is the battle rifle purchased with the thought that maybe it could serve, if it had to? I think it is.

There are many people with many different types of firearms who shoot primarily paper targets. You know why? Because it's their preference to do it and their choice. Who has any right to criticize them for it? If someone wants to spend $10,000 on a Barrett M82A1 along with the $5 per trigger pull to shoot at a paper target, then let them do it. It's their money and none of your business. Same goes with any firearm / caliber combination. I'm not going to criticize someone for their personal decision.

Yep. But they should have all the information before they buy.

Also, did you happen to notice that competitive shooting such as USPSA, IDPA, 3-gun (AR15's are big there), and many more use primarily cardboard and/or steel targets? Should they be using .22LR too since all they need is a hole or a ding sound?

Right. How many of those guys are using inexpensive AR-15's in a competitive format? How many of those guys take lots of classes with high round counts. Those "benefits" that you talked about probably make a difference here, right? So would a specific barrel and specific grain ammunition to make the most of accuracy. If you are lumping this together with the casual user trying to decide between BCM and PSA, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. There are levels of recreation. At the bottom, you need only .22lr IMO.

I'll reiterate what I said before, M4C has a ton of great information. It's just that the criticism sometimes begins to be too much.

Wrong. Criticism is there for a reason, and that reason is to help those who are trying to weigh the pros and cons of an upcoming AR-15 purchase make an INFORMED decision. A few hundred dollars of initial investment will get the casual, recreational, paper shooter a rifle that has been tested and has resale value.

My BCM went to my little sister, who loves shooting. You think that I would want to give her a POS oly and since she is just a recreational shooter, with maybe a class in her future, it wouldn't make a difference? It does to me.