Small size vs. Capacity for CC

[KoopaKGB]

Here's a little article for some perspective:

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/07/why_not_carry_the_big_gun_by_s.html

Good points in the article but I'll still carry a little snub nosed with a pocket clip, or a little .380 while wearing shorts and a tshirt. At the end the author says "Shoot at point blank range all the way out to 100 yards. See how difficult it really is." Hey I know my limits, I KNOW I'd have a hell of a time putting rounds on target at 100 yards with a tiny gun. But I have to ask at what point would I as I'm going about my daily business or errands need to hit targets at 100 yards? To me carrying a tiny little gun would be the same reason I might carry a pocket knife. I wouldn't expect my pocket knife to double as a sword, just as I don't expect my handgun to double as a rifle. I carry the little thing as a small measure of personal protection, and as such I think I would be seeking alternate solutions to a situation rather then be making 100 yard long shots.

I don't wear skin tight jeans, but theres no way I'm concealing a S&W 29 on me in the summer time. Its not happening, despite what that author said "Stop trying to look like the 17 year olds with skin tight jeans." I agree with the author that most folks at the range are shooting their full size hand guns, but I shoot my little guns all the time and am comfortable with them and am comfortable with my choice of having a mere 5 rounds of .38spl on my person to defend my life with IF need be. If I found myself getting into gun fights often then I'd CC the full size firearms with as much zest as the author has for them.

 

[Hohn]

While I agree with this, and I know I can trust my accuracy to get the job done in 1-2 shots at the range I dont know if I can trust my accuracy in an actual attack. I dont know how much it will change.... Will it be 3-4 rounds? Will it be 5-6 rounds? What if it is 5-6 rounds and their are two perps... Then what do I do? I know it sounds great to be able to say you can get the job done with 7 rounds but not knowing the situation you might one day be in that is impossible to say.

I carry a 6+1 with a spare mag or a 10+1 with a spare mag. That is 13 or 21 total shots I have. I would love to be able to say I dont need that many but how would anyone know.

It always better to be over prepared than under prepared, I mean that is why many of us carry right?

This is where I'm at. I'm only a fair to middling shot at the range (~50% on an 8" shoot-n-c at 25 yds). Under duress, I have no idea how I'd do, and frankly I am way undertrained for that scenario.

So I'll be carrying my G22 until my G20 comes. I'll live with the chubbiness in return for the extra capacity and shootability (which is more important, imo) of a full-size.

Haven't finalized holster selection yet, but I've got a top 3 or 4 contenders that I think can make full size reasonably achievable.

 

[Tnichols00]

Haven't finalized holster selection yet, but I've got a top 3 or 4 contenders that I think can make full size reasonably achievable.

I have two desantis pro stealths I am happy with, and for $30 you cant beat it. The Crossbreeds I hear are great but I just havnt got to justify the price for one when I am happy with my Desantis.

There is also some guys on here who make some nice ones so asking around you could find a nice local guy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Here's a little article for some perspective:

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/07/why_not_carry_the_big_gun_by_s.html

Interesting, but 100 yards with a pistol? What viable self defense scenario are we envisioning where 100 yard shot is likely? How many shooters can reliably hit a 100 yard target with a 6" barreled handgun? Seems like a poor argument for the full sized pistol when there are many better points to be made.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

I carry the LCP whenever we go out bicycle riding. I just stick it in a Fobus and it stays in place in bike shorts, whether road or mountain bike style...or in a front pants pocket when dressed and complete concealment is required. Otherwise, I carry a Beretta Nano with the 8 rd. mags.

 

[Aaron1776]

I know there will be differing opinions on this, but as I look at guns to purchase for CC I want info from both sides on this. I am leaning toward a compact 9mm with 10-16 round mags, but the small size and price of cc guns such as an LCP is intriguing. I'm not a big fan of 6+1 capacity though. I guess I'm looking for someone to convince me that a single stack, low cap mag is the way to go.

Honestly, it's intellectually dishonest to say "I recognize that the world has lots of violent people in it, thus I am going to carry a gun to protect myself."...but then turn around and say "But I'm not going to carry a gun with the neccessary performance or capacity to solve the average violent encounter"

Average violent encounter: 2.5 opponents vs you

Average number of hits to vital areas you'll need to stop a guy with a 9mm: 2-3

6 rouns? 2.5 guys? Man, you'd better be an awesome shot with that Kahr/Ruger/what have you.

 

[LANShark42]

Honestly, it's intellectually dishonest to say "I recognize that the world has lots of violent people in it, thus I am going to carry a gun to protect myself."...but then turn around and say "But I'm not going to carry a gun with the neccessary performance or capacity to solve the average violent encounter"

Average violent encounter: 2.5 opponents vs you

Average number of hits to vital areas you'll need to stop a guy with a 9mm: 2-3

6 rouns? 2.5 guys? Man, you'd better be an awesome shot with that Kahr/Ruger/what have you.

Source?

 

[LP1]

Interesting, but 100 yards with a pistol? What viable self defense scenario are we envisioning where 100 yard shot is likely? How many shooters can reliably hit a 100 yard target with a 6" barreled handgun? Seems like a poor argument for the full sized pistol when there are many better points to be made.

My best guess is that a 100yd shot at another human = long vacation at the taxpayers' expense.

 

[Hohn]

If anything, I think Aaron1776 might be being charitable with the assumption that a 9mm will only need 2-3 rds for stoppage. I'd be inclined to think even a .45ACP would need 2-3, more for a .40, more still for a 9mm.

Everyone weighs differently the payoff of being armed (and to what degree) versus the cost in terms of comfort and other intangibles.

There are precious few objective criteria with which to make an evaluation-- it's overwhelmingly subjective.

Therefore, telling someone they are wrong or right about whatever decision seems of little value to me.

 

[Aaron1776]

Source?

I'd have to bust it out when I get home.

The numbers come from Front Sight's "what you really face" lecture. I can't remember all of their sources.

The lecture falls in line with what I've seen in my criminal encounters, my friends, and my experiences in the ER....and it uses my favorite study ever. The Hatcher study/ formula.

 

[Aaron1776]

If anything, I think Aaron1776 might be being charitable with the assumption that a 9mm will only need 2-3 rds for stoppage. I'd be inclined to think even a .45ACP would need 2-3, more for a .40, more still for a 9mm.

.

Yeah against a dedicated opponent you are probably quite right. The thing is those stats also include bad guys who ***** out, give up, and die after a single hit to the torso

Which is why FS teaches their students to train head shots if the chest doesn't work.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Honestly, it's intellectually dishonest to say "I recognize that the world has lots of violent people in it, thus I am going to carry a gun to protect myself."...but then turn around and say "But I'm not going to carry a gun with the neccessary performance or capacity to solve the average violent encounter"

Average violent encounter: 2.5 opponents vs you

Average number of hits to vital areas you'll need to stop a guy with a 9mm: 2-3

6 rouns? 2.5 guys? Man, you'd better be an awesome shot with that Kahr/Ruger/what have you.

Is the .5 a midget? Or is the .3 from the 2.3 kids that grew up?

If we're talking intellectual honesty, how many armed and dedicated attackers do you think you can successfully take on? If you have 3 people coming at you, all armed, and tactically spaced out, is capacity really the limiting factor? Not my case, but another detective in my office had a victim who, when faced with that exact scenario as he exited his car, drew his .357 and was promptly shot from behind before he could get the first round off at the suspects in front of him.

I can tell you that at least two recent shootings were the victim was outnumbered the victim lost, one fatally. In another the victim won, critically injured the first attacker (like on life support critically injured) and the second fled. Capacity never entered the equation with any of them, none had shot to empty gun. In the last 5 years I can think of one shooting with a self defense claim where the gun was empty, and it was successful. They were both admitted dope dealers and were admittedly arguing over who was going to sell on a particular parking lot, so some of the 6 may have been a bit more personal than necessary.

Another reason I never put too much emphasis on capacity. Odds are you'll run out of time before you run out of bullets.

*on edit*
Also the reason that I favor heavier bullets, yes followup shots are important, but sometimes you won't get the chance for a followup. As I've said in multiple other posts, my sole criteria for a carry gun is whichever one (in a caliber I trust) I can get out of the holster and get 3 "A" box chest hits with the fastest.

 

[Hohn]

BBI, I like your postings on this. It's real world. Like what M&S claimed to be, but weren't.

It seems to me that things just happen so fast that the average person can't get past 7-8 rounds. VERY rarely is someone engaged in a sustained firefight of any kind. Instead, a winner and a loser emerge in just a second or two.

Ammo capacity matters, but it probably matters a lot less than things like knowing when to draw, speed of deployment, accuracy of first shot, etc.

I favor full size (like Aaron1776) for shootability. The capacity is just bonus.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI, I like your postings on this. It's real world. Like what M&S claimed to be, but weren't.

M&S were trying to break down and analyze shootings, controlling for factors that I just don't think can reasonably be controlled for fairly, and distill them to a simple per caliber result.

I've just looked at what worked and what didn't for shootings in Marion County and tried to make general conclusions based on those. My conclusions may ultimately be flawed, and are certainly incomplete, but they are based on real shootings in this area.

I'm completely comfortable carrying a GP100 as my duty weapon, despite its capacity being limited to 6 rounds. I'm completely comfortable carrying a Sig P220 despite its capacity being limited to 9 rounds (11 with extended mags). I could easily carry my issued Glock 22 and have 16 rounds w/o a reload, plus its the department's gun so if I use it and it sits in an evidence locker I get a replacement issued. I choose not to because capacity by itself means little, and I shoot the lower capacity guns faster and more accurately per my test I listed above. YMMV.

 

[cosermann]

...Average violent encounter: 2.5 opponents vs you

Average number of hits to vital areas you'll need to stop a guy with a 9mm: 2-3
...

Hey Aaron,

Do you happen to have a reference handy that you could share for those stats? Not disputing the numbers. I just like to look at the sources of things.

 

[Aaron1776]

Is the .5 a midget? Or is the .3 from the 2.3 kids that grew up?

If we're talking intellectual honesty, how many armed and dedicated attackers do you think you can successfully take on? If you have 3 people coming at you, all armed, and tactically spaced out, is capacity really the limiting factor? Not my case, but another detective in my office had a victim who, when faced with that exact scenario as he exited his car, drew his .357 and was promptly shot from behind before he could get the first round off at the suspects in front of him.

I can tell you that at least two recent shootings were the victim was outnumbered the victim lost, one fatally. In another the victim won, critically injured the first attacker (like on life support critically injured) and the second fled. Capacity never entered the equation with any of them, none had shot to empty gun. In the last 5 years I can think of one shooting with a self defense claim where the gun was empty, and it was successful. They were both admitted dope dealers and were admittedly arguing over who was going to sell on a particular parking lot, so some of the 6 may have been a bit more personal than necessary.

Another reason I never put too much emphasis on capacity. Odds are you'll run out of time before you run out of bullets.

*on edit*
Also the reason that I favor heavier bullets, yes followup shots are important, but sometimes you won't get the chance for a followup. As I've said in multiple other posts, my sole criteria for a carry gun is whichever one (in a caliber I trust) I can get out of the holster and get 3 "A" box chest hits with the fastest.

Can't say I disagree with you at all. I wasn't so much arguing the capacity side (I carry a 1911 operator...if I run the gun dry I'll just reload), I was arguing that a mouse gun was a bad idea for the following reasons.
1- When shooting a 9mm (or below) you're giving up a lot of stopping power...which is ok (in theory) IF you're shooting him multiple times. (again..in theory) At best (assuming he isn't a one hit wonder) you're going to need to plug him with a 9mm several times....under stress. At this point your mag capacity becomes a real issue
2-Mouse guns are a lot harder to hit with due to short sight radius, smaller sights, and long triggers.

Put the two together plus multiple opponents and you're hosed. (And you're probably hosed with one opponent assuming he has a real gun and wants to hurt you) I understand that there is a good chance that you'll take one down and they'll flee, and that your tactics matter most (like the poor guy of yours who got shot in the back)...but you actually have to make hits in order to make that happen. Mouse guns are not what you're looking for in a fighting pistol. And there's really no reason to carry them other than "I refuse to change my carry habits, holsters, or shirts whatsoever".

EDIT: At no point was I trying to imply that capacity would save you if you somehow got into it with multiple dedicated opponents. I'm not actually a mall ninja. All I was doing was quoting the averages of what you're going to be up against and pointing out the giant fallacy that is the idea that a mouse gun is somehow the pancea of conceal carry. A lot of people carry around a 6 shot .380 and think it's going to get them out of a jam.....and it might...under ideal conditions. But, in the average violent encounter, you're probably betting on something that is barely a step above carrying a kabar....and at least the kabar won't run out of ammo after the six shots fail to penetrate and your opponent doesn't even notice he's hit.

Hey Aaron,

Do you happen to have a reference handy that you could share for those stats? Not disputing the numbers. I just like to look at the sources of things.

Again as I noted before, it came out of my Front Sight lecture book. Considering the wealth of absolutely solid information that they gave throughout the course, I am inclined to believe them on this point too. I don't have my book on hand so I would need to go home, get it, and find whatever source they quoted.

 

[Tnichols00]

I am getting a good laugh out of this pissing match we are starting here but this is getting away from being informative for the OP...
Everyone on here agrees that both a bigger round and more capacity help but come on guys were not all carrying a FNX 45 with 2 extra mags for a reason. (15 round mags).

It really comes down to carrying what you are comfortable with in the situation you are in.

I do carry a LCP 380 6+1 with a spare mag when I am in a suit at work but the minute I get home I put on either my 9mm or my 1911 both with spare mags for a reason.

So lets just be reasonable and suggest something he WILL carry cause that is most important, then lets get something he likes and is comfortable shooting with a reasonable capacity and load him up with a spare mag.

XDS .45 6+1 with a spare mag
SR9C 9mm 10+1 with a spare mag
LCP .380 6+1 with a spare mag
1911 commander .45 7+1

Or something comparable, just pack a spare mag and practice. OP glad to hear you are looking into being a responsible citizen.