Small size vs. Capacity for CC

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  • cosermann

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    Size and capacity are relative and, as you know, somewhat inversely related.

    Based on the data I've seen [1], my own personal minimum capacity is 8 rounds. Why? Because that's about the current average number of rounds expended in a gunfight given modern autos and modern tactics.

    If I need it, I'd like to have enough capacity to get through what might be an average initial exchange (and a reload or two to deal with a malfunction, additional perps, or if the game goes into OT). If you're carrying a gun, you're doing so because you recognize the possibility you may end up fighting with it. Why would one not carry what experience seems to suggest is needed for the average gun fight?

    (I do recognize there are extenuating circumstances like non-permissive environments, etc. that require deeper carry, and smaller, lower capacity firearms at times.)

    My typical daily carry has twice this capacity because the only meaningful dimension for me, and the way I carry, between something like a Kahr CW9 (7+1) and a Glock 19 (15+1) is thickness (which doesn't bother me).

    Polls and various threads on INGO show that most INGOers carry at least a medium size auto (ex. Glock 19 or similar) IWB on the strong side. Lots of others carry different things in different ways, of course, but this seems to represent the largest group. I think there are good reasons for this (some of which have already been expressed in this thread).

    Might one need more capacity? Yup. Might one get away with less? Yes. There's a fair amount of uncertainty involved.

    Think of it as gambling and stack the deck in your favor as much as you can.

    [1] - John Farnam - Enough Ammunition
     

    SmokinSigs357

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    I know there will be differing opinions on this, but as I look at guns to purchase for CC I want info from both sides on this. I am leaning toward a compact 9mm with 10-16 round mags, but the small size and price of cc guns such as an LCP is intriguing. I'm not a big fan of 6+1 capacity though. I guess I'm looking for someone to convince me that a single stack, low cap mag is the way to go. :dunno:

    After messing with all kinds of calibers and capacities, I feel most comfortable with my SIG P239 SAS Gen 2 in 9mm.
    • 9mm is easy for me to shoot and the all metal frame of the SIG makes it REALLY tame.
    • The SIG is a super-accurate gun
    • Single stack enables me to conceal more comfortably, add to that the SAS feature on the gun smoothes out all the rough edges.
    • 8+1 capacity, plus I carry one to two extra mags with me
    I think that after reading all the statistics, etc...it all boils down to confidence and shot placement. If you are going to carry, know the laws and know the capabilities and limitations of you and your weapon...
     

    led4thehed2

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    I know there will be differing opinions on this, but as I look at guns to purchase for CC I want info from both sides on this. I am leaning toward a compact 9mm with 10-16 round mags, but the small size and price of cc guns such as an LCP is intriguing. I'm not a big fan of 6+1 capacity though. I guess I'm looking for someone to convince me that a single stack, low cap mag is the way to go. :dunno:

    It all depends on what you're willing to do to conceal a weapon. If you want to be able to simply slip something in your pocket, or something that doesn't require changing how you dress then the LCP is a great decision. If you want more firepower or more capacity you'll need a good holster, a good belt, and some new clothes....most likely.
     

    LD36

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    How do you like the sr9c? Based on research it's my first choice. I'm going shooting next week to figure out for sure which gun I'll be going with.

    I have an SR9c and LOVE it! Insanely accurate the as reliable as they come. Nice having the versatility of used the full size 17rd mags too. Very pleasurable gun to shoot
     

    ModernGunner

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    Can't decide? Well, gee, I guess you'll just be 'forced' in to buying several to 'cover' all the bases! :D :yesway:

    I CC a .45 larger than a full size Colt 1911, and I'm not a big guy. It's not WHAT you carry, it's HOW you carry.
     

    Thumbs

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    There are probably as many different answers to that question as there are people to answer it and I agree to some degree with a lot of them.

    Personally, I value concealability (is that a word?) and reliability above all else with my CCW. I carry a Kahr PM9 with a single mag. I've found the Kahr PM9 to be every bit as reliable as my G19 and more concealable.

    It is also my personal opinion that if I need to use my PM9, God forbid, and I can't get myself out of said mess in 7 rounds or less, then I'm probably in over my head to begin with.

    Decide what is important to you, do your research, and above all feel comfortable knowing that you won't die for lack of shooting back.

    Good luck!
     

    cbseniour

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    A lot of times I think that capacity is over rated. accuracy and skill are much more important, however, that being said most of us are less accurate with a smaller pistol, the sight radius is much shorter, the sights themselves are probably not as good or as easy to see and of courses you will probably be working with a doa trigger which has from 8 - 18 lb pull requirement causing the gun to want to swing down and away from the shooting hand.
    So if your going to a really small handgun capacity becomes more of an issue than with a larger gun because you are more likely to miss on the first shot(s)
    A mini handgun would work well as a back up but for your primary carry cc or oc I'd stay with something big enough to get a good grip on and a good sight picture before you squeeze off that first round.
    Just my thoughts.
     

    Tnichols00

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    A lot of times I think that capacity is over rated. accuracy and skill are much more important, however, that being said most of us are less accurate with a smaller pistol, the sight radius is much shorter, the sights themselves are probably not as good or as easy to see and of courses you will probably be working with a doa trigger which has from 8 - 18 lb pull requirement causing the gun to want to swing down and away from the shooting hand.
    So if your going to a really small handgun capacity becomes more of an issue than with a larger gun because you are more likely to miss on the first shot(s)
    A mini handgun would work well as a back up but for your primary carry cc or oc I'd stay with something big enough to get a good grip on and a good sight picture before you squeeze off that first round.
    Just my thoughts.

    While I agree with this, and I know I can trust my accuracy to get the job done in 1-2 shots at the range I dont know if I can trust my accuracy in an actual attack. I dont know how much it will change.... Will it be 3-4 rounds? Will it be 5-6 rounds? What if it is 5-6 rounds and their are two perps... Then what do I do? I know it sounds great to be able to say you can get the job done with 7 rounds but not knowing the situation you might one day be in that is impossible to say.

    I carry a 6+1 with a spare mag or a 10+1 with a spare mag. That is 13 or 21 total shots I have. I would love to be able to say I dont need that many but how would anyone know.

    It always better to be over prepared than under prepared, I mean that is why many of us carry right?
     

    Sharpie

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    I am not a fan of small pocket automatics, and feel that if you want a pocket gun, the best thing to buy is a S&W J frame or Ruger LCR revolver. If you are going to limit your capacity, at least do yourself a favor and demand reliability. Small pocket autos can be finicky, while revolvers rarely fail. My pocket gun, when I use a pocket gun, is a S&W 442 Airweight. Loaded with 110 grain DPX, it should do the trick if I ever need it.

    My most often carried gun is a Walther PPS .40 caliber. Very concealable and light in weight, with 7 rounds on tap and another 7 rounds in a spare mag. I can't think of many civilian self defense scenarios where that wouldn't suffice.

    If I feel that there is a heightened chance that violence may occur where I am going, I will carry my Glock 23. 14 in the gun, 13 in a spare mag. If that doesn't get me through, it's just not gonna be my day.

    I must admit that, most of the time, I could carry the Glock 23 and nobody would notice. I just like the thin nature of my PPS, and I don't have to make much extra effort to dress around it. I could even pocket carry the PPS if I wanted, in some of my pants. The effort that you want to make in carrying and concealing the piece is what will determine what you go with.
     

    kludge

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    1x XD-40sc = 2x Ruger SP101

    Or at a lower price point...

    1x KelTec P11 = 2x Charter Arms Undercover

    For me the extra thickness of a double stack is SO insignificant.
     

    AlwaysVigilant

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    Carry the best gun you can to cover the most scenarios. Everything is a trade off, you just have to decide what is more important. I will submit that no one in a gunfight has said, "Man I wish I had less rounds."

    Attacks with multiple assailants are on the rise all over the country, which is something to consider.

    Larger guns are typically easier to shoot well for most people, and shot placement is everything.

    Where you live and where you go, is a huge part of the equation as well.
     

    Erich

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    While I didn't buy into the hype when they were released, I wound up buying a CZ RAMI 9mm (10+1, 16-rnd backup mags) when I ran across it for $260 in a local pawn shop some years ago. I have to say that the super-chopped CZ75 is decently small and that it's done yeoman's work - very reliable with everything but the +P+ (great with the 124-grain +P Gold Dot short barrels that I keep in it - 1185 fps from the 3" tube), and accurate.

    I took off the RAMI's factory stocks (which just thickened it up - seemed silly in a concealment gun) and replaced them with plastic ones that I made in the garage. The resulting gun compares pretty well to an admittedly thin Walther PPS and is actually small enough for pocket-carry in jeans:
    21aug10PPS0090001yyy.jpg


    21aug10PPS0110001yyy.jpg


    21aug10PPS0120001yyy.jpg


    21aug10PPS0070001yyy.jpg


    20aug10Remora0040001yyy.jpg


    It's essentially the same size as a J-frame, though its thicker gripframe makes it more difficult to get a final firing grip in the pocket.

    Anyway, just some pix that might be of interest in this thread.
     
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    nakinate

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    The reason this is probably accurate is most civilian shootings are suicides or domestic violence at close range. The high number of those probably distort the stat. If you made the same statement about self defense shootings I bet the number is significantly higher.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    The reason this is probably accurate is most civilian shootings are suicides or domestic violence at close range. The high number of those probably distort the stat. If you made the same statement about self defense shootings I bet the number is significantly higher.

    1-3 is pretty standard, in self defense shootings by civilians or police action shootings.

    That's not going by someone else's statistics, that's going by the investigation of actual shootings in Marion Co.
     

    LANShark42

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    Fair enough, but the one time you need more than 7 and don't have it...well that day will suck.

    Let's take an INGO poll. Non-LEO and non-military only. Ask how many gunfights they have been in IN THEIR LIFETIME that required more than 7 shots on their part to remediate. I'm curious...
     

    cosermann

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    I don't know that a large data set has been collected for non-LEO gun fights. If someone does, I'd love to hear about it. Post it up.

    Until then, SOP-9, and the interpretation thereof may be the closest thing we have.

    See - John Farnam - Enough Ammunition

    I like this application, "having enough rounds to get you through the fight without the necessity of a reload bringing about an inconvenient interruption would appear to provide a genuine advantage."
     
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