Simon Mall

[brucecrain]

Was not aware of that thinks for linking it


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[BehindBlueI's]

Malls are like Amazon, but you have to put on pants and go outside...right?

 

[rhino]

Malls are like Amazon, but you have to put on pants and go outside...right?

Define "have to," please.

 

[Longsh0t]

I was just talking with a friend yesterday about gun free zones like the mall or other private establishments. Neither of us knew what kind of extra implications may be involved if you were to use a firearm in self defense within one of these locations. Anyone have some insight?

 

[Cameramonkey]

I was just talking with a friend yesterday about gun free zones like the mall or other private establishments. Neither of us knew what kind of extra implications may be involved if you were to use a firearm in self defense within one of these locations. Anyone have some insight?

In indiana? Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Private property "gun free zone" signs have no force of law.

Scratch that. You could get a no trespass order from the police upon management's request and told never to appear on their property or risk being arrested for violating that order. But thats the worst. But I believe you'll have bigger fish to fry than worrying about whether you can go to that store again.

 

[Fargo]

In indiana? Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Private property "gun free zone" signs have no force of law.

Scratch that. You could get a no trespass order from the police upon management's request and told never to appear on their property or risk being arrested for violating that order. But thats the worst. But I believe you'll have bigger fish to fry than worrying about whether you can go to that store again.

There is an argument that if worded properly, a sign triggers the trespass statute, but I've never seen it done. Also, the trespass order doesn't have to be from the cops, if the store people tell you to leave or to leave and don't come back, it triggers the law just the same as if a cop does it on their behalf.

 

[Cameramonkey]

There is an argument that if worded properly, a sign triggers the trespass statute, but I've never seen it done. Also, the trespass order doesn't have to be from the cops, if the store people tell you to leave or to leave and don't come back, it triggers the law just the same as if a cop does it on their behalf.

Not disagreeing with you, but without a report via LEO, how do you prove you trespassed a citizen when they return? Sure, I guess if they detain you and drag you into the security office and get you to sign a statement acknowledging the trespass order from the business, but barring that, doesnt it become a "he said she said" when LEO shows up to enforce the prior order?

 

[brucecrain]

Not disagreeing with you, but without a report via LEO, how do you prove you trespassed a citizen when they return? Sure, I guess if they detain you and drag you into the security office and get you to sign a statement acknowledging the trespass order from the business, but barring that, doesnt it become a "he said she said" when LEO shows up to enforce the prior order?

Drag you off and make you sign something sounds more like kidnapping

 

[cerebus85]

some corporate offices can do their own paperwork stating when and where a person was trespassed. all they then do is keep It on file in case it happens again.

 

[brucecrain]

some corporate offices can do their own paperwork stating when and where a person was trespassed. all they then do is keep It on file in case it happens again.

So would you have to give a corporation your name?

 

[Fargo]

So would you have to give a corporation your name?

Not that I am aware of, but they don't have to have your name to trespass you. In the context we are talking about, they almost certainly have your picture.

 

[Fargo]

Drag you off and make you sign something sounds more like kidnapping

If they have PC that you were stealing, they can do a shopkeepers arrest till the police arrive. If not, I know of no legal way for such a detainment.

 

[hopper68]

Malls are like Amazon, but you have to put on pants and go outside...right?

Some people go to the mall because they refuse to dress up for Walmart!

 

[Cameramonkey]

Drag you off and make you sign something sounds more like kidnapping

Not that I am aware of, but they don't have to have your name to trespass you. In the context we are talking about, they almost certainly have your picture.

But how do they prove you know you arent welcome?

Case in point; I show up drunk with friends to my local Meijer. I act like a goof, picking up phones and paging inappropriate things, surfing the penny pony up front, etc. and then walk out as security confronts me. All caught on video. Where is the proof that security told me I was trespassed and subject to arrest upon my return? (assuming all the cameras are video only, no audio.) At that point its the manager's word against mine. "Officer, I dont recall that interaction." or "I recall he told me to go home and nothing else." I dont know of any reasonable LEO that would take that as gospel and arrest on the word of a manager.

Well, except Frank. But he'd just curb stomp me and tell me to crawl home.

 

[hpclayto]

But how do they prove you know you arent welcome?

Case in point; I show up drunk with friends to my local Meijer. I act like a goof, picking up phones and paging inappropriate things, surfing the penny pony up front, etc. and then walk out as security confronts me. All caught on video. Where is the proof that security told me I was trespassed and subject to arrest upon my return? (assuming all the cameras are video only, no audio.) At that point its the manager's word against mine. "Officer, I dont recall that interaction." or "I recall he told me to go home and nothing else." I dont know of any reasonable LEO that would take that as gospel and arrest on the word of a manager.

Well, except Frank. But he'd just curb stomp me and tell me to crawl home.

yeah definitely not. We have witness the property owner/ person in charge tell the person they're trespassed from the property and then make a record of it in our RMS system.

 

[eldirector]

I miss the "good 'ole days" when the shopkeep would literally post your picture and name on the door or at the register with a NOT WELCOME for {insert reason} sign. Embarrass the hell out of the person, and if they want it down, they need to work it out with the proprietor. Trespass was simple. If your pic was up, and a cop was called, off you go.

 

[DRob]

I get a kick out of hard core OC advocates who provide evidence in support of CC.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But how do they prove you know you arent welcome? ....

In practice, we don't. We would not make a trespass arrest unless there was some CAD history that an officer had witnessed a trespass warning being given, the property had authorized an LEO to give the warning on their behalf, or the person admitted to trespassing. Occasionally signed paperwork, usually in the scenario of either eviction or repeat shoplifter, would also work.

Other places may handle it differently. Remember for an arrest, we don't have to know for sure you did "it", we have to know it's probable you did "it". If I saw the video of you acting as described, several employees gathering, you talking, and then the manager (a known complainant) says you were issued a tresspass warning during that interaction...that's probable. If it's beyond a reasonable doubt would be up to a court.

 

[brucecrain]

Hey look we did get back on track it only took 8 pages lol


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[Expat]

I miss the "good 'ole days" when the shopkeep would literally post your picture and name on the door or at the register with a NOT WELCOME for {insert reason} sign. Embarrass the hell out of the person, and if they want it down, they need to work it out with the proprietor. Trespass was simple. If your pic was up, and a cop was called, off you go.

You wouldn't want to harm the self esteem of a POS shoplifter would you?