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[Denny347]

My previous post was based on everything up to post #29 (where I left my computer this AM)
Denny: BIG on the highlighted lines above! THANK YOU! Education is the key to both protecting our rights and to minimizing (or, dare I suggest, eliminating!) these idiotic MWG calls and letting you guys concentrate on busting real criminals.
Yet another big on you asking, "You have a permit?" and taking a "Yes" (or more likely, "Yes, sir." ) at face value. That is the primary reason, but all of the above is getting you rep'd.

I just wanted to make note of this and to thank you for addressing this issue this way. It is noticed and appreciated.

Blessings,
Bill

Why thank you, I promise you that I'm not alone in this. I do tire of asinine 911 calls. I had one at IUPUI many years ago. The caller called to say that there was a suspicious person on campus. They said that there was a black man on a bench reading a newspaper. OMG!!! the black officer to whom the run was given to took exception to the caller's view of suspicious activity. Man with gun (no disturbance) is a very rare call thankfully. Most Indy residents don't see past their own nose.

 

[Bill of Rights]

And is "bacon with a badge" any fresher or would that a stale take of of "pig"?

PIG:

Pride
Integrity
Guts

I don't see a problem with that... Do any of the "pigs" on here?

 

[Denny347]

What I was taught is that in the United States one is innocent until proven guilty. It is one of the fundamental reasons I have spent years of my life living in the suck.
YMMV!

I wished more people would live by that rule. There are many times that I tell the person that I'm arresting that i am law-bound to arrest them but that does not mean that they will be found guilty. I've had many a drunk driver sincerely ask what they should do next while I'm taking them to lock-up. I ALWAYS advise them to get a lawyer and go over ALL their options before they decide what to do with the case. Sure I get cynical about dirtbags committing crimes and wish bad things upon them, however, innocent until proven guilty is always in your face. Unfortunately, guilty until proven innocent is even more prevalent when a brother/sister LEO is on the news. We are unfortunately always guilty of something.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I wished more people would live by that rule. There are many times that I tell the person that I'm arresting that i am law-bound to arrest them but that does not mean that they will be found guilty. I've had many a drunk driver sincerely ask what they should do next while I'm taking them to lock-up. I ALWAYS advise them to get a lawyer and go over ALL their options before they decide what to do with the case. Sure I get cynical about dirtbags committing crimes and wish bad things upon them, however, innocent until proven guilty is always in your face. Unfortunately, guilty until proven innocent is even more prevalent when a brother/sister LEO is on the news. We are unfortunately always guilty of something.

Sadly, the few of your brother (and sister) officers who do screw up tend to make the news and the whole "few bad apples" thing applies. I have said many times, here and elsewhere: I respect those LEOs who honor and follow their sworn oath; those who truly do put on the uniform "to protect and to serve".

I am reminded of the closing lines of the EMT Oath, as written by Dr. Charles Gillespie and adopted by NAEMT in 1978:
"...While I continue to keep this oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life, and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. Should I trespass or violate this oath, may the reverse be my lot.
So help me God."

I can think of few wishes that would be better granted, no matter the honorable profession being discussed.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[DKSuddeth]

However, if the pistol toter would have been open carrying, this would have provided "sufficient corroboration," and I'm betting that a conviction for carrying a handgun without a license would have been upheld. This calls to mind the "plain view" doctrine. The quoted case deals more with the unreasonableness of the SEARCH, rather than any issue pertaining to the producing of a LTCH. I would agree with the court in this case. (Not that they care what I think. ) Open carry involves no search.

We really need some specific case law pertaining to the demand by LE to present a valid LTCH when asked, not case law about a pat down search based on an anonymous tip. The court did not make a "firearms exception" to the Terry Stop rule, however, this does not equate to a defacto legality in the US of open carrying a handgun without regulation.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with this reasoning. 'plain view' does not even come in to play because open carry is legal in Indiana. Because of that, any demand to see an ltch is unlawful. You MUST ASSUME that the carrier is within the law UNLESS there is a violation of a law you can articulate. If you demand to see an LTCH and the carrier, who wasn't breaking any other law, cannot provide one, you're probably going to lose in the appellate court. Because there was no 'firearms exception', the mere carrying of a firearm, being a legal act, is not cause for detainment OR investigation.

 

[Beau]

That's what I was thinking...

"Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and searches him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime."

Being that it is illegal to carry a handgun without a permit (unless you are on your own property, etc.), an officer would have the right to demand proof that you are in possession of a permit.


)."

Why do you think that he would have the right. While it is illegal to carry with out a license where is the evidence that a crime is being commited just by observing someone carry?

 

[1032JBT]

To me this is all very simple, and I'm sure I will get flamed over this, but oh well.

It all boils down to one word: SOCIETY. Like it or not, society has made it the way it is today. As has already been posted, OC/CC is not illegal as long as there is a LTCH, but in todays society people react badly to seeing guns, either OC or CC. Like it or not that is just the way it is. The laws are there to protect everyone, but I will be the first one to admit that enforcing them means that I as a cop have to interpert the vast gray area. Something to think about for those that think it should all be black and white: Police use that gray area a lot more often to help the law aiding citizens out than to do what some of you have described as "harrass" law abiding citizens. That gray area helps us to deal with the problems that you don't want to deal with anymore. For those of you that think we just run around "harrassing" people for the fun of it I would just say you should move to a compound somewhere and only come out when supplies are needed. And if you really are being harrassed all the time by police, then I do feel sorry for you, but except for a very small percentage of cases........this is not what is happening. Like it or not, in most of the cases when you have been contacted by police, you have done something either illegal or something to draw attention to yourself. That attention could be by a citizen or something witnessed by the officer, either way the result is the same....you and the police having a conversation. I have had bad expierences with police as well, even while being one. But later.......after all of it was over, I can see that I did something to help that situation along. For those that think never do anything wrong to draw the attention of the police, in the laws eyes or a reasonable persons eyes, should just go ahead and apply for sainthood now and get it over with.

As far as the debate of OC or CC and crime reduction. I can tell you this from expierence, if all LTCH laws were done away with it would be very bad for everyone. I was a cop in Arizona, which has no requirement for a LTCH for OC. It was very bad and gun crimes were a common occurance. Going to a road rage call with shots fired was like me now going to an alarm call. It was common and happened daily.

I am very glad this discussion has been civil in nature because healthy discussion is a good thing. Like I said before, Society has made it the way it is now.....like it or not. If you don't like it and can't deal with it, then figure out a way to invent a time machine and go live in the 1800's when nobody cared what you did for whatever reason.

Don't blame Police or anyone else trying to be the messenger, blame SOCIETY for the way things are today.

 

[1032JBT]

No issue from me

PIG:

Pride
Integrity
Guts

I don't see a problem with that... Do any of the "pigs" on here?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Unfortunately, guilty until proven innocent is even more prevalent when a brother/sister LEO is on the news. We are unfortunately always guilty of something.

Not always. Well at least not in everyones eyes. I try to judge any persons actions on all available facts. And I try to find out what facts that I can before making judgement. There was a case a few? (damn I'm getting old can't keep track of time) yrs ago about a cop tasering a 12-13 yr old kid that was running away. People I knew were going off about how that he should lose his badge be jailed etc. Until I told them that the kid was running towards a very heavily traveled street and the cop tased him to keep him from getting hit/causing a accident.

Oh and thank you and +1 on your and your departments views on this subject.

 

[1032JBT]

The first thing we should all do, either LE or not, is never ASSUME we will know what the appeals courts will do...........they will always surprise you.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with this reasoning. 'plain view' does not even come in to play because open carry is legal in Indiana. Because of that, any demand to see an ltch is unlawful. You MUST ASSUME that the carrier is within the law UNLESS there is a violation of a law you can articulate. If you demand to see an LTCH and the carrier, who wasn't breaking any other law, cannot provide one, you're probably going to lose in the appellate court. Because there was no 'firearms exception', the mere carrying of a firearm, being a legal act, is not cause for detainment OR investigation.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Please cite the specific case law, relevant to the enforcement of firearms law in INDIANA, that leads you to this belief. Otherwise, you are way out of line calling a police officer a criminal with a badge. Highly educated attorneys get paid to argue about just this kind of issue. It's not as black and white as you think it is, otherwise there would be no need for attorneys and courts. Until this particular issue has been settled by the courts, your opinion doesn't mean jack ****. Cite the case law, and put this issue to bed for good, if you can.

While I stipulate that this is NOT Indiana law, it COULD be used in that instance.

Therefore, a police officer's knowledge that a person is peacefully carrying a firearm, in and of itself, does not furnish probable cause to believe that the person is illegally carrying that firearm. The resultant stop is improper under Fourth Amendment principles. Commonwealth v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178, 552 N.E.2d 538 (1990), cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951 (1990).

 

[1032JBT]

Why do you think that he would have the right. While it is illegal to carry with out a license where is the evidence that a crime is being commited just by observing someone carry?

You answered you own question. Unless you wear your LTCH around your neck, how am I to know if you have one and therefore are legal to carry the gun.

I think by now we can all agree that we will never agree on this issue. In the words of Rodney King (should I make this reference given the topic .....oh well) "Can't we all just get along???" I for one will agree to disagree on this topic.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

PIG:

Pride
Integrity
Guts

I don't see a problem with that... Do any of the "pigs" on here?

No issue from me

None from me either. Perhaps I should start referring to LEOs as that? j/j
And that is a good description of most of the LEOs I have known.

And for my bacon comment I hope that everyone understands that was in jest. And even if it wasn't who doesn't love bacon? Except for some commie-pinko, un-american, pansy vegitarians? (before I get flamed by any vegitarians that was a joke just a joke)

 

[1032JBT]

None from me either. Perhaps I should start referring to LEOs as that? j/j
And that is a good description of most of the LEOs I have known.

And for my bacon comment I hope that everyone understands that was in jest. And even if it wasn't who doesn't love bacon? Except for some commie-pinko, un-american, pansy vegitarians? (before I get flamed by any vegitarians that was a joke just a joke)

I'm sorry I lost track there for a second.......did you say something about Bacon???

 

[DKSuddeth]

The first thing we should all do, either LE or not, is never ASSUME we will know what the appeals courts will do...........they will always surprise you.

yeah, I'll probably end up regretting that later.

 

[Bill of Rights]

None from me either. Perhaps I should start referring to LEOs as that? j/j
And that is a good description of most of the LEOs I have known.

And for my bacon comment I hope that everyone understands that was in jest. And even if it wasn't who doesn't love bacon? Except for some commie-pinko, un-american, pansy vegitarians? (before I get flamed by any vegitarians that was a joke just a joke)

The only vegetarian I know of is on here... and she's neither "commie-pinko", "unAmerican", nor "pansy".... But for a comment like that, she might sic her monkey on you.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Timjoebillybob]

For those of you that think we just run around "harrassing" people for the fun of it I would just say you should move to a compound somewhere and only come out when supplies are needed.

Just slightly toungue in cheek. But how well did that work for ruby ridge, waco, Shirley Allen etc.

As far as the debate of OC or CC and crime reduction. I can tell you this from expierence, if all LTCH laws were done away with it would be very bad for everyone. I was a cop in Arizona, which has no requirement for a LTCH for OC. It was very bad and gun crimes were a common occurance. Going to a road rage call with shots fired was like me now going to an alarm call. It was common and happened daily.

Just one question what kind of a area were you working in in AZ and how does that compare to the kind of area you work in now? I'm sure gun crime in Gary IN is much worse than Gilbert AZ.

 

[bigg cheese]

Just for the record, I appreciate all the police officers' trying to help us better understand the law and how they are applied. My Devil's Advocate ploy was justt that . I have tried too get information from my local PD before and the best answer I got was "Use common sense." It can work, but that didn't answer my question .

I've joined flamewars before, and this has been nothing but civil.


Thanks again.

 

[1032JBT]

Just one question what kind of a area were you working in in AZ and how does that compare to the kind of area you work in now? I'm sure gun crime in Gary IN is much worse than Gilbert AZ.

I would agree with you that gun crime is worse in Gary than Gilbert, but couldn't that be said about just about anywhere in the US? Apples and Oranges.......in Gilbert we were within 30 minutes of Phoenix which did have A LOT of gun crimes, just as now with working for Fishers we share a border with Indianapolis. While gun crimes in Fishers or Gilbert will never be as bad as Indy or Phoenix, they are still present and don't forget this:

It only takes me saying, "Oh surely he has a LTCH or he wouldn't be carrying", and not investigate it. I'm sure that 99 times out of 100 I would be good to go with that, but what about time #100???? What happens if I get hurt or killed because I made that assumption, someone else gets hurt or killed, or worse.........your wife or children gets hurt or killed??? I will agree that a lot of the laws are stupid, but they are there for a reason and normally that reason is because some tool with the common sense of a bug flying into the bug zapper decided to push the issue......hence the need for the laws and the downfall of.............SOCIETY. Hmmmm, I recall mentioning that before.

Not saying you specificly, but some on here would be the first in line to sue me for not checking someone that eventually hurt or killed their family member or loved one and would also be the first in line to sue me for checking them because I saw the gun, either OC or CC. It's that whole damned if you do damned if you don't thing. I don't know about all of you, but I would much rather go to my grave and stand before God knowing I did the best I could weather you think I did or not.

 

[1032JBT]

Just for the record, I appreciate all the police officers' trying to help us better understand the law and how they are applied. My Devil's Advocate ploy was justt that . I have tried too get information from my local PD before and the best answer I got was "Use common sense." It can work, but that didn't answer my question .

I've joined flamewars before, and this has been nothing but civil.


Thanks again.

Hey, I enjoy playing Devils Advocate sometimes too and have no issues with it, although sometimes you get a little dealing with the aftermath.