Shooting low - Help a noobie!

[U.S. Patriot]

Shoot a 10 shot group off a rest at the same distance, same sight picture.

If it's still 3 inches low adjust your sights. If it's not... every thing they said.

That's what I suggest also. Shooting off a rest well really help you with finding your POI. That way you can determine if the sites need ajusted. Or if it's things you need to work on yourself. I aim my Buckmark center mass of the target. It seems to work for me. Practice the basics as much as you can. It will help to create muscle memory. Best of luck!

 

[lovemachine]

I think he's asking if you do a "six o clock hold" or if you hold center of mass on your target. That is, when you get a sight picture, which of these does it look like?

The rightmost is what I think he's saying your sights may be set up to do, but many places will teach you to shoot like the one on the left.

Good luck.

Blessings,
Bill

So I'm suppose to be shooting like the one on the left? I'm confused.

 

[SirRealism]

Note that this diagram is for normal people (right-handed). For southpaws, it's reversed.

The advice you've gotten is good. For other shooting problems, this may help, too.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[mk2ja]

So I'm suppose to be shooting like the one on the left? I'm confused.

I believe most training classes will teach you to shoot like the one on the left, commonly called "six o'clock hold". But, some manufacturers may actually design the gun and the sights to be used like the one on the right, so if you use the common teaching, you may end up shooting consistently low. Like I mentioned earlier, my XD had a page in the manual describing how the sights were designed to work, so if you're having the problem of always being low, it may be a good idea to check the manual.

 

[theweakerbrother]

I say this because I don't see it anywhere else in the thread. Get snap caps for your rimfire or you may break your Buckmark. My Buckmark, unless you have a new one and they've changed the design, has no firing pin block like a Ruger MKII/22/45 and should not be dry-fired.

 

[lovemachine]

I believe most training classes will teach you to shoot like the one on the left, commonly called "six o'clock hold". But, some manufacturers may actually design the gun and the sights to be used like the one on the right, so if you use the common teaching, you may end up shooting consistently low. Like I mentioned earlier, my XD had a page in the manual describing how the sights were designed to work, so if you're having the problem of always being low, it may be a good idea to check the manual.

Huh. I've always lined up the very top of the sites, just like the center picture. And my shots tend to go low. I've never tried the far right. I think I should start doing that, I shoot a Glock 19. If that's the way I should be shooting, I feel like an idiot now.

 

[Bill of Rights]

So I'm suppose to be shooting like the one on the left? I'm confused.

You're supposed to be shooting however your sights are set up to shoot. If you don't know what that is, that could cause you a problem or two.

Huh. I've always lined up the very top of the sites, just like the center picture. And my shots tend to go low. I've never tried the far right. I think I should start doing that, I shoot a Glock 19. If that's the way I should be shooting, I feel like an idiot now.

Don't. We all do things that we later ask ourselves, "Self, WHAT THE F*** were you thinking?" and this nowhere close to that. You came into this with that one thing we (at Appleseed (yes, shameless plug)) prize so highly: a "teachable attitude". You came in, said "I don't know, help me- point me in the right direction so I can learn.", and you accept and do what you can to make the suggestions you're given make sense and work for you. That, sir, is not the mark of an idiot, far from it.

The reason most teach a six o'clock hold is so you can see your whole target. Aiming higher on the target obscures that some, but if that's how you've trained and that's how your guns are set up, stick with that.

(BTW, the target on the left is how we teach open-sights, while the one on the right is for scopes. Others may teach differently, and it's just that: different. Neither better nor worse, IMHO.)

The important thing is that you know how YOUR GUN works and you know how you work so you can make them work together.

Feel like Yoda, why do I?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Jack Ryan]

I believe most training classes will teach you to shoot like the one on the left, commonly called "six o'clock hold". But, some manufacturers may actually design the gun and the sights to be used like the one on the right, so if you use the common teaching, you may end up shooting consistently low. Like I mentioned earlier, my XD had a page in the manual describing how the sights were designed to work, so if you're having the problem of always being low, it may be a good idea to check the manual.

Every firearm I've ever owned has been sighted in for the center sight picture. If not from the factory then upon my first use. Rifle, pistol, archery, what ever all the same.

The purpose of the left one is intended for use by competition bullseye shooters shooting the same target over and over from the same distance. If I had ONE gun I was going to use for this ONE purpose and nothing else, I would use that sight picture.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Huh. I've always lined up the very top of the sites, just like the center picture. And my shots tend to go low. I've never tried the far right. I think I should start doing that, I shoot a Glock 19. If that's the way I should be shooting, I feel like an idiot now.

If you do and you don't change anything else, can you not see your shots will land even lower?

 

[rhino]

So I'm suppose to be shooting like the one on the left? I'm confused.

Which type of sight picture you use is personal preference and application-driven, but in each case, your sights have to be regulated properly for that sight picture.

The left side shows a 6 O'clock hold, which is most common in Bullseye, PPC, High Power, and similar static target shooting sports. The idea is to regulate your sights so that you can havea consistent, repeatable sight picture that will not obscure the target itself. You adjust the sights so that it hits in the center of the target you will be shooting if you hold the top edge of your front sight at the bottom of the full target area.

The sight picture in the middle is more commonly used for more practical applications and how most fixed sights are regulated. It's probably the most useful for most applications since it depends only on distance and not the size of the target to hit where you want to hit.

The version on the right is (in my experience) the least common unless fixed sights on a gun don't allow anything else.

 

[rhino]

Probably not, unless there is a good reason for it. The 6 O'clock hold has advantages for some applications, but it's more specialized. I've never been in a defensive or action/practical competition class where anything other than the center figure was used (top of the front sight where you want the bullet to hit).

I believe most training classes will teach you to shoot like the one on the left, commonly called "six o'clock hold".

 

[lovemachine]

Thanks for the replies. I was looking at the above picture again. And at the night sites on my Glock 19. The sites look a lot like the picture on the right. I've always tried lining up my sites like the one on the center, and my shots always go low. I'm just wondering if this has been my problem this entire time. I should be lining them like the one on the far right. Next time I go shooting, I'm going to give that a try.

 

[rhino]

Thanks for the replies. I was looking at the above picture again. And at the night sites on my Glock 19. The sites look a lot like the picture on the right. I've always tried lining up my sites like the one on the center, and my shots always go low. I'm just wondering if this has been my problem this entire time. I should be lining them like the one on the far right. Next time I go shooting, I'm going to give that a try.

That's one of the problems that 3-dot sights create (with little advantage to cover it). How the sights are zeroes depends on whether the person who did it (or spec'd the sights) did it by aligning the dots or by aligning the tops of the front and rear sights themselves.

In my opinion, it's more "correct" to regulate the sights based on the top of the front and top of the rear, regardless of what type of sight picture you use. Sometimes the relationship between front and rear dots is not the same as the relationship between the tops of the sights. You can see this on some guns if you align the dots and note that the tops of the sights are not aligned. To compound this, the dots on sights are not always painted in the exact same relationship consistently, which is another reason why using dot alignment isn't the greatest idea.

It's not so bad if you shoot one gun exclusively and you just adjust your sight picture to accommodate it. However, if you shoot more than one gun or you are forced to shoot a gun that is not yours (like a so-called "battlefield pickup"), it will potentially cause problems.

This is one of the reasons I prefer having tritium capsules in just my front sight. When I have adequate light, I align the tops of the sights with my visual focus on the top rear edge of the front sight. In low light, I am typically not as concerned about the same level of precision (or I am using my light too), so the tritium just helps me get confirmation of a gross alignment and an adequate sight picture.

For guns with white dot sights, I will black out the dots in the rear. My brother (obijohn) will turn the rear sight backward in a Glock to eliminate the white box outline for the same reason. The dot in the front is great for when the shot requires less precision, and when a shot requires more precision, return to the hard focus on the top edge of the front sight.

It's simpler than I've made it sound, I think, but my brain is a little ragged right now.

 

[boblade]

I would suggest that you Use a FULL front site Blade Picture when you look down your sites and aim at the Bottom Circle 6 o"clock of your Bulleye at 15 Yards.

 

[Lead Head]

I didn't read all the posts but I'm sure someone must have suggested starting close, even at 5 yards and moving the target out one yard at a time. Do this when you and the gun are both fresh as muscle fatigue will set in. Metal changes after the heating-cooling process during firing but not that much.

All other things being equal like the same ammo, sights are reasonably set, etc., take note of when the hits start dropping. It's not the gun but a .22LR out of a pistol requires compensation in most cases, that's why shooters like the big stuff. They go where you aim and don't drop off near as fast. Minute of Angle or MOA is usually talked about with rifles but it's really about ammo capability in this case.

Technique just comes with practice but the one thing I always suggest with .22LR is go with the highest velocity round your gun can handle. CCI Stingers are tops but there are others. .22 is cheap compared to centerfire stuff so if you want to become proficient with a rimfire pistol, get the good stuff and good luck.

 

[the1kidd03]

the sight alignment very well will account for the low issues and although I didn't read ALL of the posts, I see a lot of guys have posted all excellent advice and so some of mine may be redundant but with a slight different explanation

Low and left is in most cases a sign of "trigger control"...whereby many shooters say you "jerk or mash" the trigger rather than "gently squeeze"....a better description of this is that due to the mechanics of your hand (having so many different muscles and tendons in such a small area) every slight movement will be transfered throughout the rest of the generally "loose mechanisms" (other muscles, bones, etc)....same concepts as the whole "for every action there's a reaction" plus the size of a moving muscle doesn't change it simply displaces somewhere else......you can demonstrate this "theory" by closing your fist and extending your trigger finger AS IF you were actually holding a gun, then press and release the "trigger" repetitively...when you do this, notice how the palm, thumb, and forearm muscles all flex in different directions simply to allow for the movement of the ONE trigger finger......this muscle flexation is what contributes to "trigger control" issues.....those slight movements seem little even when transfered to the gun your holding, but with increased distance to your target the shot will place further and further away............several guys here have posted excellent advice for helping with this and other potential issues you're having and so the I'll recommend the following

to correct for the "trigger control" scenario and muscle flexing...you simply can only train it out of your natural tendency......simply make a dot on a piece of paper to "act" as your target....when looking at this dot from whatever distance you have to work with, try to make it to where the dot is roughly the width of your front sight post.....then start taking aim and gently squeezing the trigger (dry fire)...when you squeeze you should not see the edges of the dot peek out around the sides of the front sight post in any direction.....we call this "snapping in"...it allows you to practice all the mechanics which go into firing a weapon without having to go to a range and spending a bunch of money

another tip, in the isntance you may be "anticipating the recoil".....we would load an unkown number of rounds into a magazine and place snap caps randomly within the mag...so when you shoot it'll be something like bang, bang, bang, click....and when you reach that snap cap you will notice if you are "jumping the gun" and this same practice will help you train it out of you

one thing which is worth mentioning is grip and stance....the style of your grip can dramatically affect the "severity" of the "muscle flex" issues....one IMPORTANT thin that lot of beginners don't seem to realize is that when you grip the pistol with your firing hand, you should be "crushing" the grip...squeezing it pretty tightly.....this does several things but in the interest of my post I'll just leave it at the fact that it helps to eliminate the "flexing muscle" problem....so make sure you're squeezing the grip firmly.....also you may wish to think of your shooting position, many beginners start out with a Weaver stance and find out that with the additional bone support and natural body alignment of the Isosceles stance you will probably have better luck keeping your sight from "wandering" if that is an issue for you

hope some of this will be of some help, sorry if it's redundant

 

[kludge]

three words, Dry Fire Practice

... except that's not a good idea when you shoot a ...

Buckmark .22

unless you have snap caps.

I wasn't sure if it would matter, so I dry fired mine *once* and it left a mark on the breech.

 

[Glock19Dude]

Thanks for the replies. I was looking at the above picture again. And at the night sites on my Glock 19. The sites look a lot like the picture on the right. I've always tried lining up my sites like the one on the center, and my shots always go low. I'm just wondering if this has been my problem this entire time. I should be lining them like the one on the far right. Next time I go shooting, I'm going to give that a try.

Same here. I was always taught to line them up like the center pic. All 3 of my pistols seem to shoot low and left. I'm going to try the sight picture on the right. Now I want to leave work and go to the range.

 

[Steve MI]

OH Boy not this again