Several 9mm questions

[elaw555]

My simple truths (possibly made up) about bullet choices.

1. Any of the major manufacturers make good quality hollowpoints. Federal, Gold Dot, Remington, Winchester, Corbon, Hornady, etc. All will work...pick a design you like best...or the cheapest of the majors...and you will be fine.

2. Bullet weight matters only in reference to the length of your barrel. What you are looking for is a velocity envelope to allow for rapid, consistent, bullet expansion, but to do so you need to be in the right velocity range on target. The longer the barrel the more velocity the bullet travels at. Therefore I like to carry the heavy rounds (147 in 9mm, 180 in .40SW, and 230 in .45ACP) in longer barrels because the bullet will have enough velocity anyways and you want to take advantage of the extra weight. Shorter barrels produce much less velocity (up to 100 feet per second per inch of barrel according to the website of Double Tap Ammo) and therefore need to use lighter bullets or +P loadings to help generate the extra velocity needed for adequate expansion. In shorter barreled firearms use the 115 or 124 +P in 9mm, the 135-165 in .40SW and the 185 in .45ACP. Using light bullets in long barrels produces a very fast round that may fragment due to the increased velocity and/or overpenetrate. Using heavy bullets in short barrels may cause the round to inadequately expand and under-penetrate.

JMHO...YMMV

 

[John Galt]

All of this is false, as I have heard that a 9mm won't stop anybody, and that you HAVE to have a .45!

 

[PatMcGroyne]

The first post was info. The 2d post was (deliberately, I think) a lot of blah-blah-

"Ballistics, Shmallistics" We are talking about "projectile-energy transfer" into living, pulsing red meat. "Placement " is everything ('though a ping-pong ball on the toes does not favourably compare to a "bowling-ball" there.) A "fat" projectile into the heart is best; a less-fat projectile into the deeper spinal-cord is also good. Tell me, readers and prophets, "Where will your next life/death confrontation befall you?" Enough said. Not only "Bring enough gun!", but also "Bring enough bullet." Don't "blow them away with factoids", but "blow them away with well-placed bullets." Pat (Repped 1st post)

Spoken like a true physics major.

If the energy isn't converted into useful work, it means nothing in this context. Bullet design, sectional density, etc. all affect how this conversion happens.

Read the thread and the links and you'll start to gain some appreciation for how this works within the context of terminal ballistic effects on biological targets.

Examples:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/357%20Magnum%20Glaser.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/357 Magnum.jpg

The first represents 767 joules badly converted into useful work.
The second represents 732 joules more effectively converted into useful work.

Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds

I don't want to give the impression that everyone is a "Facklerite" either. A good approach, imo, is to combine the findings of wound ballisticians, with hunting experience, and historical performance looking for a convergence of data to help identify the best loads.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

If you want pure stopping power, then carry a 12 guage with 00 buck. Stopping power to me is purely a myth. There is no such thing as a one shot stop, at least there is no guarantee. As stated before shot placement is your best friend. You aim for vital organs, because you have a better chance of a mortal wound. The whole caliber, and load debate has been beat to death. Now I do personally prefer the heavier 147 grain rounds. They may have a slower speed, but the mass helps with penetration. Honestly you do not need to carry +p. Yes FMJ ammo has a better chance of overpenetrating. Hollow points are designed to mushroom, hence creating a larger diameter would cavity. However they can become cloged depending on what clothing it passes through, and act more like a FMJ. If people do not think a 9mm will do the job, then they should volunteer to get shot!

 

[Hoosier]

A great debate...our discussions and conclusions help us learn. There is most likely many correct answers, but not one perfect answer.
Hoosier

 

[Cemetery-man]

All of this is false, as I have heard that a 9mm won't stop anybody, and that you HAVE to have a .45!

I had a co-worker tell me last week that the reason police aren't using 9mm anymore is because they are worthless at stopping a BG. As he put it "Won't even slow em down". He also said his son, who is a local LEO, said that the 9mm won't go through glass or a windshield.

 

[super38]

If you want pure stopping power, then carry a 12 guage with 00 buck. Stopping power to me is purely a myth. There is no such thing as a one shot stop, at least there is no guarantee. As stated before shot placement is your best friend. You aim for vital organs, because you have a better chance of a mortal wound. The whole caliber, and load debate has been beat to death. Now I do personally prefer the heavier 147 grain rounds. They may have a slower speed, but the mass helps with penetration. Honestly you do not need to carry +p. Yes FMJ ammo has a better chance of overpenetrating. Hollow points are designed to mushroom, hence creating a larger diameter would cavity. However they can become cloged depending on what clothing it passes through, and act more like a FMJ. If people do not think a 9mm will do the job, then they should volunteer to get shot!

Do a FBI research, I am pretty sure that's why local LE don't carry the 147 JHP is because they were not mushrooming as first thought they would. In fact, I believe, it's just the opposite with 147's, that they act like FMJ.

If I can find it, I will post any FBI report of an actual shoot out. The BG was loading his .45 acp magazines (as he ran out) by hand, putting them in the gun, pulling the slide back and returning fire to the swat and police on the scene, all the while being shot by police (some of the calibers were .40 and .223.) He took a few too many rounds before dropping.

So, the debate goes on and on and one and on........

Shot placement and willingness to die on the BG's part is the best bet..Carry the biggest caliber you can shoot effectively and practice, practice and practice some more....

Super38

 

[Mr. Habib]

I had a co-worker tell me last week that the reason police aren't using 9mm anymore is because they are worthless at stopping a BG. As he put it "Won't even slow em down". He also said his son, who is a local LEO, said that the 9mm won't go through glass or a windshield.

Most handgun rounds are poor performers when it comes to windshield glass, even some rifle rounds have trouble, depending on the type of bullet.

 

[super38]

Here is the FBI report --- WARNING Graphic!

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf


------------GRAPHIC ----- WARNING -----------GRAPHIC

 

[elaw555]

Here is the FBI report --- WARNING Graphic!

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf


------------GRAPHIC ----- WARNING -----------GRAPHIC

According to that report, the 5.56 rounds failed to stop the attack and only after the .40SW rounds hit the target was the assailant able to be restrained.

Conclusion .40SW > 5.56mm

J/K

Very interesting report. Thanks

 

[super38]

The report makes you think. As some have stated, there is NO one-shot Guarantee.

I guess the only thing to say "Make your shot(s) count and don't stop until the BG is no longer a threat." aka DOWN!

 

[sianbrimons]

Any of these pistols are fine with +p, since they are NATO certified:
glock 17/19
sig sauer 228/226
browning hi-power
beretta M9
CZ P-01

a quick question to this, i'm wondering am i alright to run some +p through my Glock 26? I would assume if the 17/19 can take it that mine could, as it seems to me the 26 is basically a scaled down 17. Thanks in advance to anyone who knows

 

[t413]

G26 can handle +P+ so yes, it can do +P

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Do a FBI research, I am pretty sure that's why local LE don't carry the 147 JHP is because they were not mushrooming as first thought they would. In fact, I believe, it's just the opposite with 147's, that they act like FMJ.

If I can find it, I will post any FBI report of an actual shoot out. The BG was loading his .45 acp magazines (as he ran out) by hand, putting them in the gun, pulling the slide back and returning fire to the swat and police on the scene, all the while being shot by police (some of the calibers were .40 and .223.) He took a few too many rounds before dropping.

So, the debate goes on and on and one and on........

Shot placement and willingness to die on the BG's part is the best bet..Carry the biggest caliber you can shoot effectively and practice, practice and practice some more....

Super38

Shot placement is more important then caliber. If you look at balaistic charts. The 9mm will penetrate just as deep as as .40 or .45. I know someone here did a test of some 147 grain 9mm rounds. They all mushroomed just fine. So I do not know where you got your info. You want to talk about caliber size. You say carry the bigest caliber that you can control. Then tell me why in vietnam, some gi's put whole mags in some vc's just to stop them? Because .45 is a man stopper right? Let me ask, do you want to volunteer to be shot with a 147 grain 9mm hp? Two to chest, and one to the head your enemy will know no difference.

 

[sianbrimons]

G26 can handle +P+ so yes, it can do +P

thanks much, wanted to make sure of that before i just go loading it up. I only have about 100 rounds through the gun yet, it got too cold out saturday to keep loading rounds, numb fingers are near useless trying to load brand new mags. (at my size anyway)

 

[super38]

Shot placement is more important then caliber. If you look at balaistic charts. The 9mm will penetrate just as deep as as .40 or .45. I know someone here did a test of some 147 grain 9mm rounds. They all mushroomed just fine. So I do not know where you got your info. You want to talk about caliber size. You say carry the bigest caliber that you can control. Then tell me why in vietnam, some gi's put whole mags in some vc's just to stop them? Because .45 is a man stopper right? Let me ask, do you want to volunteer to be shot with a 147 grain 9mm hp? Two to chest, and one to the head your enemy will know no difference.

Yes, I did make that comment about carrying the largest caliber that you can control. It's not a difficult concept to understand. I can carry, with confidence a .45 but have many friends, some because of age and other because of size, the .45 acp is a little too excessive for them. Meaning, they were okay with the first shot but missed the paper on the second. (See, this is where the control part comes into play.) If you can't consistantly fire the gun at 7 yards and hit a paper plate -- YOU HAVE NO CONTROL, period!

As I had indicated earlier in this thread, bullet size does not matter as much as placement.

balaistic charts: Which one are you referring to because there are many out there? Hornady has a chart indicating the TAP ammunition has superior stopping results but during a shoot out, it seemed to fail. By the way, were talking about the 5.56/.223 round that seemed to fail even though the ballistic charts agreed they would stop threats successfully.

I know about the charts as I used to work with a firm that manuctured 25mm and 30mm ammunition for the military. To obtain a so called perfect chart, there are 4 people spending time in prisons because they falsified the charts.

The last few sentences, what could that possibly prove? Your debate was worthwhile before the volunteer for suicide or justification of mushrooming in the human body. Serioursly, there are other ways to prove that point without mediocre threats.

Super38

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Yes, I did make that comment about carrying the largest caliber that you can control. It's not a difficult concept to understand. I can carry, with confidence a .45 but have many friends, some because of age and other because of size, the .45 acp is a little too excessive for them. Meaning, they were okay with the first shot but missed the paper on the second. (See, this is where the control part comes into play.) If you can't consistantly fire the gun at 7 yards and hit a paper plate -- YOU HAVE NO CONTROL, period!

As I had indicated earlier in this thread, bullet size does not matter as much as placement.

balaistic charts: Which one are you referring to because there are many out there? Hornady has a chart indicating the TAP ammunition has superior stopping results but during a shoot out, it seemed to fail. By the way, were talking about the 5.56/.223 round that seemed to fail even though the ballistic charts agreed they would stop threats successfully.

I know about the charts as I used to work with a firm that manuctured 25mm and 30mm ammunition for the military. To obtain a so called perfect chart, there are 4 people spending time in prisons because they falsified the charts.

The last few sentences, what could that possibly prove? Your debate was worthwhile before the volunteer for suicide or justification of mushrooming in the human body. Serioursly, there are other ways to prove that point without mediocre threats.

Super38

It was not a threat. I was simply stating I do not know of anyone, that would want to get shot period with any cailber. I know there is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot, stopping an assailant. I do not care if it's a .45, or a 9mm. I can carry a .45 with confidence too, but that was not my point. My point was just because joe blow carries a 9mm, and you carry a .45. Does not mean you can stop a threat any quicker. Even if both shots are in the exact same impact point. I will see if I can find the chart I was refering too. I know it has been posted on here several times.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Yes, I did make that comment about carrying the largest caliber that you can control. It's not a difficult concept to understand. I can carry, with confidence a .45 but have many friends, some because of age and other because of size, the .45 acp is a little too excessive for them. Meaning, they were okay with the first shot but missed the paper on the second. (See, this is where the control part comes into play.) If you can't consistantly fire the gun at 7 yards and hit a paper plate -- YOU HAVE NO CONTROL, period!

As I had indicated earlier in this thread, bullet size does not matter as much as placement.

balaistic charts: Which one are you referring to because there are many out there? Hornady has a chart indicating the TAP ammunition has superior stopping results but during a shoot out, it seemed to fail. By the way, were talking about the 5.56/.223 round that seemed to fail even though the ballistic charts agreed they would stop threats successfully.

I know about the charts as I used to work with a firm that manuctured 25mm and 30mm ammunition for the military. To obtain a so called perfect chart, there are 4 people spending time in prisons because they falsified the charts.

The last few sentences, what could that possibly prove? Your debate was worthwhile before the volunteer for suicide or justification of mushrooming in the human body. Serioursly, there are other ways to prove that point without mediocre threats.

Super38

As you can see the 147 grain 9mm actualy penetrates slightly deeper, then then 230 grain .45 does. Yes it creates a larger wound cavity, but that's do to the larger size. You also have to remember it's a temporary wound cavity. Also the 9mm is traveling at over 1,000 fps. That is plenty enough for full mushrooming of the round.