Self defense question about provocation.

[ashenfang]

Indiana law says that it is NOT self defense if you initiate a confrontation or attack on another person, and then use force.

I.E. Pick a fight or start a physical altercation with someone who then overpowers you. Lethal force would not be seen as self defense in this scenario.

So that leads me to my hypothetical question. What if you are outside at night, minding your business, watering your lawn ect. An individual(s) walking by is being disorderly, loud, throw trash in your yard, whatever. You simply say something to them to address the issue. "Quiet down!" "Pick up your trash please!" ect. However, the response from the person(s) is not what you expect and they confront you aggressively verbally/physically. What was once a simple request has escalated. Would you be justified in self defense even though you "initiated" the contact?

I guess this same idea could be applied to any situation where you might "initiate" contact in a non-aggressive way but the person reacts in an unexpected way.

 

[Aaron1776]

1- He's now trespassing on your property and causing problems. Legally he's screwed and you're fine.
2- Reasonable requests are not considered initiating a fight
3- All of this is going to boil down to how believable your story is and how credible you seem to the investigating detective, and then the jury should it somehow make it to trial. (Assuming there are no witnesses to confirm your story)

Basically in that situation, by Indiana law you would be fine. Though be wary if he's unarmed and not substantially larger than you. Shooting unarmed people causes questioning if what happened is not overly apparent. Your best bet is to go back inside and call the authorities, but don't hesitate to shoot an unarmed man if your life is truly at risk.

 

[Rob377]

Indiana law says that it is NOT self defense if you initiate a confrontation or attack on another person, and then use force.

...

That's not exactly what it says. One of the most sure-fire ways to get things screwed up in law is to start paraphrasing statutes.

(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.

That's not the same thing as "initiating a confrontation" in the sense of asking someone to get off your lawn.

 

[Six Forty-Two]

In the OP hypothetical situation, he asked the passerby to come into his yard to pick up the litter. He is therefore not trespassing, but invited. If he starts aggressively arguing and you ask him to leave and he doesn't, then I would think trespassing occurs.

 

[CathyInBlue]

If someone throws trash into my yard right in front of me and I yell at them to pick it back up, I have not initiated contact with them with my command. They initiated contact with me by committing the tort of trespass in using my property as their garbage can.

 

[beararms1776]

There's a difference in verbal contact and physical contact. I would not be kicking someones arse because they threw trash in my yard. Does it make it okay for many to throw their trash there because you don't engage them with violence? Probably!

 

[jkwparrott]

I agree with the replies, there is a big difference in verbal or physical confrontation. But it brings up a good question. I have recently become aware that someone in our area is going around stealing gas from vehicles. Now my question. If I confront someone I catch siphoning gas from my truck he is going to run. I'm too old and fat to be chasing some young punk, so I would probably pull my gun and hold him there for the LEOs. What would the legal ramifications of that be?

 

[KLB]

I agree with the replies, there is a big difference in verbal or physical confrontation. But it brings up a good question. I have recently become aware that someone in our area is going around stealing gas from vehicles. Now my question. If I confront someone I catch siphoning gas from my truck he is going to run. I'm too old and fat to be chasing some young punk, so I would probably pull my gun and hold him there for the LEOs. What would the legal ramifications of that be?

Do you think you would be justified in shooting him in that situation? If not, don't draw your weapon.

Take a picture and give it to the police.

 

[beararms1776]

I agree with the replies, there is a big difference in verbal or physical confrontation. But it brings up a good question. I have recently become aware that someone in our area is going around stealing gas from vehicles. Now my question. If I confront someone I catch siphoning gas from my truck he is going to run. I'm too old and fat to be chasing some young punk, so I would probably pull my gun and hold him there for the LEOs. What would the legal ramifications of that be?

What KLB said.

 

[VN Vet]

You will becharged for starting a fight for requesting the bad people quiet down and clean up their trash. A reaonable request has nothing to do with it after today and the State of Florida.

The Zimmerman trial has just announce that George Zimmerman can be found guilty of lessor charges. Child abuse is one of them since the bad guy was under age. Shooting the bad guy was uncalled for because he was armed with only an ice tea and skittles.

The State wants Zimmerman be found guilty of something and they will make up the laws as they go along, according to the Sanford City Council, the Judge, the ACLU and the State of Florida. If Zimmerman is found guilty of anything, the we believers in the right to defend oneself are in a world of trouble.

 

[ziggy]

Regarding the OP, I believe a better way to think of is this is as follows: If you are out and about on neutral territory and you pick a fight with someone, then you are not allowed to use deadly force just because the other guy is getting the better of you. However, if you cry "uncle" and withdraw from the fight, then if the other person refuses to call it quits and becomes the aggressor, then you may use force to defend yourself. But, as in any other case, you should use deadly force only as a last resort. And remember, you and any other witnesses, are going to tell the cops that you were the initial aggressor. A prosecutor and, if it gets to that, a jury will take a very dim view of someone who starts a fight and then ends it with a gun.

 

[Disposable Heart]

JKWparrot,
Use of deadly force in a citizens arrest is only in cases of forcible felony, not misdemeanors (even if you don't shoot, you are enacting deadly force by pulling your gun and commanding them to stop). You will go to jail if you hold a gas sucker at gunpoint.