Seattle City Council votes to phase in $15/hr minimum wage

[Vigilant]

Politicians can.
The market cannot.

No, I was actually asking MG, as he seems to think taking something from someone who has it and giving it to someone else just because is a good thing?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Odd that so many seem happy that automation is preferable to paying a living wage. Ah well, the machine isn't here for your job. Yet.

 

[rambone]

Odd that so many seem happy that automation is preferable to paying a living wage. Ah well, the machine isn't here for your job. Yet.

Higher wages means more incentive to automate. Do you deny this?

 

[jamil]

Odd that so many seem happy that automation is preferable to paying a living wage. Ah well, the machine isn't here for your job. Yet.

Higher wages means more incentive to automate. Do you deny this?

Silly rambone. The state's function in permitting companies to engage in this pretense of capitalism is so that all of society will be employed at a living wage. The purpose of employers is to employ people. After all, you didn't build that.

Really, it's better this way. Really. Everything will be all better. A $15 minimum wage will end poverty. No more unemployment lines. No more welfare. Because higher wages always mean more employment. I can't believe you didn't know that. Sheesh! Haven't you ever taken an economics course?

 

[Birds Away]

I don't think anyone is against good paying jobs. Some people are just aware that there will be a lot of unintended consequences. Nothing happens in a vacuum. A free market economy is all about balance and if you put in aritificial restrictions in one area there will be corresponding corrections in others. But, hey, what could go wrong?

 

[RockofStrength]

Odd that so many seem happy that automation is preferable to paying a living wage. Ah well, the machine isn't here for your job. Yet.

I have little sympathy for the obvious unintended consequences that will probably come to these people. They forced that situation to arrive far sooner than it otherwise would have, and used the law to enrich themselves at another person's expense without actually working any harder, smarter, or longer for it.

 

[Classic]

Not a matter of wanting automation or not wanting it. Raising wages will lead to more automation in today's environment. Take a look at the auto industry over the last 20 years for a good example.

 

[gstanley102]

I can't help but ask why stop at $15/hr???????????

Why not $20/hr or $25/hr?????????

 

[Vigilant]

I can't help but ask why stop at $15/hr???????????

Why not $20/hr or $25/hr?????????

Well hell, since I'm an evil cheapskate employer that doesn't pay enough to live on for a non-skilled labor position, as long as someone else is paying for it, let's make it $33.79 per hour! I'm on my way to work to break it to my laborers, that since I am going to be required to pay a "living wage" to someone, they decide which one amongst themselves, and the rest can go home?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Well hell, since I'm an evil cheapskate employer that doesn't pay enough to live on for a non-skilled labor position, as long as someone else is paying for it, let's make it $33.79 per hour! I'm on my way to work to break it to my laborers, that since I am going to be required to pay a "living wage" to someone, they decide which one amongst themselves, and the rest can go home?

I wonder if a manager / owner / etc could get away with having a meeting. In said meeting, it would be asked for all supporters of this measure to raise their hands. Those that raise their hands would then be segregated from the others - and then told to work it out amongst themselves which of them would be staying on and which would be laid off.

-J-

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I can't help but ask why stop at $15/hr???????????

Why not $20/hr or $25/hr?????????

Is that how you negotiate a raise? Hey boss, I want an $1 an hour raise? No, wait, why not make it $11 bajillion dolllars? Its the same, right?

I have little sympathy for the obvious unintended consequences that will probably come to these people. They forced that situation to arrive far sooner than it otherwise would have, and used the law to enrich themselves at another person's expense without actually working any harder, smarter, or longer for it.

So what happens to us when it happens anyway? Automation is inevitable. There are not, and never will be, enough "skilled" positions for everyone who wants to work. If you think a robust middle class is going to survive without a living wage for unskilled and semi-skilled employees, you're fooling yourself. The wealth gap continues to increase, and there's no apparent way to stop it. I've talked about it in too many posts to go through the whole spiel again here, but without some intervention, we're enroute to a feudal economy, and simple manipulation of the minimum wage isn't going to change that. For the reasons given, higher wages combined with available technology equates with fewer, but higher paid, workers, further opening the wage gap.

The point I made is how happy and smug folks seem to be about it. Until it happens to them, too. There's fewer and fewer jobs that can't be done by machines or man/machine teams cheaper and more efficiently than by man alone, and that list grows rapidly as technology improves.

 

[Vigilant]

Is that how you negotiate a raise? Hey boss, I want an $1 an hour raise? No, wait, why not make it $11 bajillion dolllars? Its the same, right?



So what happens to us when it happens anyway? Automation is inevitable. There are not, and never will be, enough "skilled" positions for everyone who wants to work. If you think a robust middle class is going to survive without a living wage for unskilled and semi-skilled employees, you're fooling yourself. The wealth gap continues to increase, and there's no apparent way to stop it. I've talked about it in too many posts to go through the whole spiel again here, but without some intervention, we're enroute to a feudal economy, and simple manipulation of the minimum wage isn't going to change that. For the reasons given, higher wages combined with available technology equates with fewer, but higher paid, workers, further opening the wage gap.

The point I made is how happy and smug folks seem to be about it. Until it happens to them, too. There's fewer and fewer jobs that can't be done by machines or man/machine teams cheaper and more efficiently than by man alone, and that list grows rapidly as technology improves.

What about the happy smug people that are delighted that the government is going to force closure if small businesses due to the touted "living wage"? No matter how much you want it to be true, there are jobs that are NOT worth $10, let alone $15. I employ three people, I pay more than minimum, but not too much. I assure you that if we adopt $15 an hour, I will then employ only two, maybe even one. I cannot afford to pay 3 people $15 per hour because with payroll tax and everything added, that is a HUGE difference. $15 on the employee end ends up being close to $20 on my end, who's making up the extra?

 

[HoughMade]

Want to make $15 an hour? Be worth $15 an hour. No minimum wage needed.

With a college degree in the mid '90s, I made about $21,000-$22,000 a year working 70 hours a week. I agreed to work for it and that is what I got paid. I did not want to work for that forever. I suppose I could have picketed and whined and complained for the minimum wage to be higher, but I guess I wasn't smart enough for that. Instead, I went about obtaining the education and skills to make my work worth more than that...maybe even worth more than the magic $15 an hour.

Almost anyone at the lowest wage levels has the ability to improve their wage-earning potential markedly if they are willing to put the work and temporary unpleasantness in to do it. For a few years, I chose to forgo many things and tunnel all my resources into creating a career for myself. To me, it was the simple choice. A few years of living poor with a plan, many, many more of living relatively comfortably.

 

[jkaetz]

Raising minimum wage is the functional equivalent of lowering everyone else's wage. Businesses will not simply absorb the hike and lower their profits, they'll pass the costs on to the consumers. All of us who have worked hard to make ourselves valuable are now being pulled back down to help people who typically won't even help themselves. There are exceptions to this but the majority of minimum wage workers are that way because of the choices they've made in life. We're hurting the majority to help the minority. Ultimately that will end badly for all of us.

 

[Vigilant]

Another question, what about the workers that already make $15 an hour? Are they going to stand by and watch as the mope from down the street walks into the job at $15 and not ask for their "fair share"?

 

[jamil]

Is that how you negotiate a raise? Hey boss, I want an $1 an hour raise? No, wait, why not make it $11 bajillion dolllars? Its the same, right?

No, that's not how you ask for a raise. You want a raise? Demand the government force your employer to give you one. But seriously, in the real world, if you ask for a raise, if your employer believes you're that valuable, you'll probably get it.

So what happens to us when it happens anyway? Automation is inevitable. There are not, and never will be, enough "skilled" positions for everyone who wants to work. If you think a robust middle class is going to survive without a living wage for unskilled and semi-skilled employees, you're fooling yourself. The wealth gap continues to increase, and there's no apparent way to stop it. I've talked about it in too many posts to go through the whole spiel again here, but without some intervention, we're enroute to a feudal economy, and simple manipulation of the minimum wage isn't going to change that. For the reasons given, higher wages combined with available technology equates with fewer, but higher paid, workers, further opening the wage gap.

The point I made is how happy and smug folks seem to be about it. Until it happens to them, too. There's fewer and fewer jobs that can't be done by machines or man/machine teams cheaper and more efficiently than by man alone, and that list grows rapidly as technology improves.

I thought we hashed this out in the last "automation" thread. That's okay. We can go through it again.

Automation happens when the cost of developing and implementing it is less than the cost of the labor it would replace. So, if you want to make minimum wage jobs ripe for being taken over by automation, yeah. Go ahead. Raise the minimum wage so that you cross that threshold.

 

[ashby koss]

And let the De-valuation of the American dollar begin!

I think this has been a long term goal of anti-Americans for a long time now. It's a shame we had to let one into the oval office.

 

[Joe G]

Want to make $15 an hour? Be worth $15 an hour. No minimum wage needed.

With a college degree in the mid '90s, I made about $21,000-$22,000 a year working 70 hours a week. I agreed to work for it and that is what I got paid. I did not want to work for that forever. I suppose I could have picketed and whined and complained for the minimum wage to be higher, but I guess I wasn't smart enough for that. Instead, I went about obtaining the education and skills to make my work worth more than that...maybe even worth more than the magic $15 an hour.

Almost anyone at the lowest wage levels has the ability to improve their wage-earning potential markedly if they are willing to put the work and temporary unpleasantness in to do it. For a few years, I chose to forgo many things and tunnel all my resources into creating a career for myself. To me, it was the simple choice. A few years of living poor with a plan, many, many more of living relatively comfortably.

True for me on every point. Made $21,500 first job out of college in mid-90's. Wife made less. We worked our azzes off so that we'd get raises, promotions or new jobs that paid more.

Did i "want" more - of course, but I had to EARN it through hard work and SACRIFICE! Used cars vs new. Apartments instead of a big house. No vacations and luxuries vs maxing out the credit card.

I'm tired of the "it's not fair" crowd b*tchin' and complaining that the wage they make isn't "livable". Get a skill or competency that MAKES you worth the wage you want and go get THAT job. Flipping burgers, making $5 mocha-frappa-crappa coffee drinks, doing laundry at a hotel...ISN'T that job! Funny how those jobs used to be just for students and retired people who wanted some extra cash - NOT to make a "career" out of.

 

[hornadylnl]

Is that how you negotiate a raise? Hey boss, I want an $1 an hour raise? No, wait, why not make it $11 bajillion dolllars? Its the same, right?



So what happens to us when it happens anyway? Automation is inevitable. There are not, and never will be, enough "skilled" positions for everyone who wants to work. If you think a robust middle class is going to survive without a living wage for unskilled and semi-skilled employees, you're fooling yourself. The wealth gap continues to increase, and there's no apparent way to stop it. I've talked about it in too many posts to go through the whole spiel again here, but without some intervention, we're enroute to a feudal economy, and simple manipulation of the minimum wage isn't going to change that. For the reasons given, higher wages combined with available technology equates with fewer, but higher paid, workers, further opening the wage gap.

The point I made is how happy and smug folks seem to be about it. Until it happens to them, too. There's fewer and fewer jobs that can't be done by machines or man/machine teams cheaper and more efficiently than by man alone, and that list grows rapidly as technology improves.

I learned to work on the machines. I got into the automation side of it because I saw the writing on the wall. I'm too young to coast as a maintenance mechanic. There'll come a day where the guy carrying the laptop points to the knuckle dragging mechanic who wanted nothing to do with learning the automation side of it and tells him which part to change. Parts changers aren't worth much. What I described is largely what I'm doing now but I don't get paid any more for it... Yet.

 

[gstanley102]

Is that how you negotiate a raise? Hey boss, I want an $1 an hour raise? No, wait, why not make it $11 bajillion dolllars? Its the same, right?

Who is negotiating?
We don't need no stinking negotiations when we can demand the government force business owners to pay what we deserve.
It's only fair.
Right?