Scope or Spotting Scope?

[cgraydotcom]

Ok, so I see a lot of people using what I would consider lower magnification scopes shooting longer distances. When shooting distances over say, 100-300 yards, are you folks using your scope to identify your hit marks, or are you using a spotting scope to see where you hit? I mean, I can see the target with a lower magnification, but I can't see the holes in paper very well. So my brain tells me to go with a high power scope. Shoot, see, shoot, see, shoot. Not shoot, shoot, shoot, look. Can I get some feedback on what you folks do?

Thanks

 

[Leo]

Past 200 yards, even a $1000 spotting scope will not see bullet holes. The use of a spotting scope allows a person to read the wind. (or a closer distances, see hidden combat targets. The bigger the front lens, the more detail you will see. By adjusting the focus, you can read the wind indicators (mirage, dust, leaves, etc.) at different yardage. For example, at further distances, you may have a left 1/4 value wind for the first 200 yards and a right full value wind from 800 to 1000 yards. Knowing the affects of wind drift a skilled marksman will quickly deduct the left from the right and determine the amount of wind drift compensation it will take to place a hole in the target. Since you already know what your windage and elevation zeros are at each distance, you can be pretty close at how many clicks you need to get there.

Marksmanship really does not start until 400 yards. Keep in mind, that a simple 10 mph wind can blow 30-06 ball ammo 4 feet off target at a relatively close 600 yards. There are several good books and videos about reading the wind. Sgt Jim Owens sells pretty good stuff. I always used MOA as my unit of measure. Modern Military seems to have gone mostly to MILs. Serious ballistics study and accurate data record books are essential. There are situations where a person does not have the luxury of "walking" the hits to the target while a spotter relays how far you are off. You have to make the first bullet hit the mark.

I have been in a situation where I needed 8 feet of wind compensation and my sight only had 6 feet of adjustment. I aimed at a target 10 feet into the wind direction and deducted 2 feet of compensation, letting the wind drive the bullet into the proper target. It earned me a medal in Expert class that day. It takes a lot of serious study, I am still not sure I learned it all. It is both science and art, with a long list of variables.

 

[Yeah]

On clear days with little mirage I can reliably spot 0.224" bullet holes well past 200 yards with spotters both above and below the $1000 mark. Nothing beats a Zeiss Victory, but I've used USO's offering and Theron's 60mm to good effect.

 

[cgraydotcom]

Thanks for that info. I am nowhere near the level you guys are. Windage, elevation, books? I'm trying to see if I hit a big pumpkin, not putting 5 shots thru the same hole. A $1000 spotting scope? I must be in the wrong forum. Is there a novice area? I feel like I asked a brain surgeon for a haircut.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Try an Appleseed. And then continue to a known distance appleseed!

 

[cwillour]

Thanks for that info. I am nowhere near the level you guys are. Windage, elevation, books? I'm trying to see if I hit a big pumpkin, not putting 5 shots thru the same hole. A $1000 spotting scope? I must be in the wrong forum. Is there a novice area? I feel like I asked a brain surgeon for a haircut.

Quite a bit depends on the target and the round. Shooting a black target (non-reactive and not the "shoot-n-see" variety) can get tough if there is no back-lighting to shine through the hole. OTOH, freshly painted steel or other targets often leave a mark large enough to be clearly visible.

If you are going to get a spotting scope, get a decent one. I believe the Konus 20-60x80 (about $230) is one of the common suggestions on the lower-priced end. In most ways, optics quality is more important than magnification and many lesser scopes produce a poor quality image that makes them frustrating to use.

The problem I normally have with trying to use a scope to view the holes in difficult targets is that, by the time I get enough magnification to see the holes, I have more magnification than I really want for the shot itself. At those higher magnification levels, it is easy to get distracted by the crosshairs bouncing with every heartbeat or find myself trying to rush a trigger squeeze or "chasing the bullseye".

What type of ranges are you shooting & what type of physical response are you getting from impact?

 

[Leo]

Thanks for that info. I am nowhere near the level you guys are. Windage, elevation, books? I'm trying to see if I hit a big pumpkin, not putting 5 shots thru the same hole. A $1000 spotting scope? I must be in the wrong forum. Is there a novice area? I feel like I asked a brain surgeon for a haircut.

Sorry, if you are just walking rounds out to see a smashed pumpkin, a good scope on your rifle will probably be all you need. Same thing about the front lens, the bigger, the better. Do not get to impressed with high magnification. You will see more in a 6 or 8 power scope with really good quality optics than you will with a 24 power cheap quality scope. If you are the kind of rifle shooter that holds your rifle offhand, sitting, or prone in your own hands instead of carrying a steady rest, over 12 power gets too hard to stabilze the view anyway.

There is a great guy here that has a first class scope business, that knows as much about scopes at each price point as anyone I have ever met. He is also a good man to do business with, fair and honest. He should see this in a day or so. He calls himself 42769vette and owns A&A optics.

 

[42769vette]

A lot is going to depend on the color of the target. A hit 9n the white is much easier to see than a hit in the black. At 300 yds hits in black won't happen often unless we are taking about 33 caliber holes. I get calls daily with folks wanting a spotter to see paper hits at 700 yds, and frankly the only thing capable of doing that is a camera.

What budget do you want to be in? If it's south of 300 the konus IS your answer. If you dont want to spend as much as the konus saving your money IS your answer.

 

[cgraydotcom]

Ok, now I understand a bit more. I was shooting an AR at around 100-150 yards. My cheap ($150) BSA 6-24X40 was allowing me to see most holes in paper. I just purchased an M1A Loaded Stainless, ($1800). My range only goes to 200 yards. I would like to sight in at that distance, and see where I hit. With the option of going elsewhere and just hitting something that makes noise, like a metal plate, as far as I can successfully do so. So my budget can be almost wherever, but have no clue what to get.

 

[USMC-Johnson]

Definitely have a good long talk with Vette. He will give you the no BS answer whether he sells your something or not. One of the few guys out there willing to impart tons of knowledge without the need to line his pockets to do so.

 

[cwillour]

Definitely have a good long talk with Vette. He will give you the no BS answer whether he sells your something or not. One of the few guys out there willing to impart tons of knowledge without the need to line his pockets to do so.

^^^^ This

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Ok, now I understand a bit more. I was shooting an AR at around 100-150 yards. My cheap ($150) BSA 6-24X40 was allowing me to see most holes in paper. I just purchased an M1A Loaded Stainless, ($1800). My range only goes to 200 yards. I would like to sight in at that distance, and see where I hit. With the option of going elsewhere and just hitting something that makes noise, like a metal plate, as far as I can successfully do so. So my budget can be almost wherever, but have no clue what to get.

I personally don't like to see the holes I am making when I am making them. It screws with my head and I start trying to "correct" the last shot and I end up shooting all over the place because I am "chasing" my last shot.

I have found it to work better if I focus on the fundamentals of making the shot, and just shoot a solid group, then check the group by either walking down and looking at it or checking through spotting scope, then making any corrections if necessary, then shooting another group, rinse and repeat.

So for me, I don't want my rifle scope to show me the holes in the paper, I would want a spotting scope for that.

Another +1 for vette, when I am in the market for glass I just contact him and tell him what I want to do and what I want to spend and ask him what I should buy. He's treated me straight so far and if the answer is something he does not sell, he's not shy about telling you to buy the right thing from someone else rather than the nearly right thing from him. He's good people.

 

[cgraydotcom]

I hadn't given that any thought Bubba, but it makes good sense. Put it where I want, then go see if it went there. Someone mentioned camera, so I went looking for that idea as well. Anyone use or know about the Bulllseye camera? That looks kinda cool. Not very old school, but might have a place in my equipment closet.

 

[sloughfoot]

I recently bought a drone with a camera. I am going to see if it is useful to transmit images from downrange back to the firing line. I haven't worked out the details yet.

I setup my spotting scope so I can look through the sights with right eye and the spotting scope with my left eye at the same time while prone.

When shooting long range, a spotter with his scope over you, can watch where the bullet is going in flight and get you centered. Or come to a high power match where the guy downrange will pull and mark the target for you.