SBR idiot arrested at Gun Show...

[indykid]

Playing devil's advocate, what if the guy truly was ignorant of the law, which is no excuse, but maybe he didn't know the second amendment sub-title C: the right of the people to bear arms with barrel lengths for rifles at least 16 inches and shotguns at least 18 inches shall not be infringed.

 

[mettle]

Yep.

I'm amazed at how many people think that 3" negates the Second Amendment. Granted I'm not going to risk 10 years in prison for those 3" but at the same time I'm not going to root for some poor schmuck to get sent up river either.

What a wonderful day for American tax payers. We will spend tens of thousands of dollars to send a guy to prison just spend tens of thousands more on him being incarcerated in which time we'll lose thousands of dollars in tax revenue... all for a piece of metal being 3 inches too short.

Yeah America!

Yep. +1. Why root for those who are causing the oppression and unjust laws and are simply a means of income. 3".... what a pathetic reason when we have 1 million illegal aliens in our borders, jobs going overseas and no means of defending ourselves from a real invasion. Supporting such is laws is almost like snobbery...

 

[techres]

My read is this:

1. The NFA laws are unConstitutional. Period.
2. The NFA laws are sadly legal. Period.
3. You can live free and Constitutionally solid and yet need to understand the legal implications of that if they violate current law.
4. YMMV, but taking a paperless SBR to a gun show is the best way to become a test case of something. Hope that is what you intended to do!
5. If he was clean of anything else, I am sad he got arrested. But me thinks there is probably a history there somewhere.
6. If we had a full transcript, one would hope he got a warning (like in the other thread) and decided to ignore it. I would sleep better if his arrest was precipitated by arrogance or stupidity.
7. All the NFA laws need to be repealed so that the law and the Constitution come back in line. The only temporary fix to this is jury nullification which is what scutter was getting at. And I am happy to get in that line and pull that trial.

That about covers it.

 

[standeford]

what if the guy truly was ignorant of the law

A lot of people I know who 'know guns' don't know the NFA regs, so it wouldn't surprise me.

You see violations like these at auctions sometimes, Encores with pistol barrels and shoulder stocks, or a VFG on a PLR-16...that kind of thing. The people who built them and the guys auctioning them off, and most of the people in the crowd, have no idea it is illegal.

 

[kevinj110]

I hope that one day we can get these laws repealed and then we can move in a new direction of freedom.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Kinda like your IN carry permit... not required to be ON you, but can prevent an arrest and siesure of the gun if accused of carrying illegally.

A real nit: The NFA forms are actually tax docs, so technically you don't "have" to share with anyone (incl LEO) other than ATF agents... but again, it's probably in your best interest...

+1 ^^^^^ This is what I've always been told. Just like your LTCH, the law doesn't say it HAS to be on your person, but it is generally a good idea.

And the forms only have to be presented to an agent of the ATF. Sure, a regular LEO can ask, but you don't have to tell.

 

[alfahornet]

And the forms only have to be presented to an agent of the ATF. Sure, a regular LEO can ask, but you don't have to tell.

Just out of curiosity are there any IC issues regarding SBRs? I always assumed there are (but didn't see anything in a quick search), you would still have to show that you have it legally. If there aren't then you're correct, BUT I'd still show it to them to avoid any hassles.

 

[Scutter01]

Just out of curiosity are there any IC issues regarding SBRs? I always assumed there are (but didn't see anything in a quick search), you would still have to show that you have it legally. If there aren't then you're correct, BUT I'd still show it to them to avoid any hassles.

The IC does not address NFA items except for short barreled shotguns. It does address machine guns, but only to say:

IC 35-47-5-10
Applicability of statutes relating to machine guns
Sec. 10. The provisions of section 8 or 9 of this chapter shall not be construed to apply to any of the following:

(7) Persons possessing, or having applied to possess, machine guns under applicable United States statutes. Such machine guns must be transferred as provided in this article.

In other words, it's illegal to own or shoot a machine gun unless you're authorized under Federal statutes.

Here's the section on Prohibited Instruments of Violence:

Indiana Code 35-47-5

 

[Indecision]

I too would hope it gets nullified as it's an unconstitutional law to begin with, but if the guy did it knowingly, there's reprocussions to deal with. Hard spot.

 

[alfahornet]

Thanks Scutter01, would let me rep you again.

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

why was the atf at the gun show? me thinks they had been watching him for a while

You kidding?

ANY show's got at least one ATF; big shows have more.

Knob Creek has no fewer than five at the April shoot; no fewer than four at the October shoot.... overheard that comment from a Knob Creek RSO chatting with a shooter on the line in between matches. Then again, biggest military/Class III show in the country is bound to attract some Federal attention.

But I would lay a month's pay that even the smallest shows still have at least one plainclothes agent present. Hell, the only reason for their existence is revenue-enhancement through enforcement... without keeping an eye out on people with rifle barrels shorter than 16" or overall rifle lengths of 26", how are they going to justify their budget?

Nowadays, $200 for an NFA stamp and $5 for an AOW isn't much, but back in '34, you could buy a good rifle for $10 or $20.
So this was anathema to most people, and often not enforced except against the wealthy, whom the ATF knew could pay the tax... no point trying to collect what was at that time a princely sum from a moonshiner, say, who might only make $50 every couple of months... but with inflation, and the encroachment of mission creep, it's become a real, if less and less expensive, problem.

The bigger problem is the direct un-Constitutionality of the '34/'68/'86 regulations, IMO:

"...shall not be infringed."

However, I'm not about to try to overturn the laws, no matter how illegitimate they might be (and there's little doubt in my mind that they are in fact, un-Constitutional) or to be a hero. No, sirree, I'll leave the caselaw for someone who has the time, money, and patience to deal with that... it wasn't until 1916 that we "realized" that we all have to pay Income Tax (which is a direct capitation tax, which is also explicitly verboten by the Constitution, interestingly enough).

I do, however, recommend the book Unintended Consequences by John Ross, which hopefully is redundant advice, as everyone, particularly firearms owners, should have read by now.... it's historical fiction, but provides some of the best and most accurate history of the gun laws and their progression that I've ever come across. Had one history professor in college who had this as part of the course curriculum despite a few mumbles from the Board of Trustees....

 

[Sthunter987]

He had to have done something to draw attention to myself.

 

[D.Kupp]

First of all, I wish there was no NFA and we could own whichever weapon we choose as long as we are not felons.

Unfortunately there are rules that we need to abide by.

Now, All I have to say is this guy was arrested for being stupid. There are a lot of guys out there who try and skirt these laws or live in what they believe are "gray areas" and are at least smart enough to not parade around their stupidity at a gunshow.

 

[CulpeperMM]

I'm hoping for jury nullification, personally.

+1

 

[jim.a]

At the last 1500 I saw a kid with a 11" AR15 I ask if it was SBR and if he had papers with it and he didn't know what I has talking about. He was at the gun show all day with his gun. So there not a lot ATF agent at the show.

 

[calcot7]

Yeah. but what a dumbass.

 

[kycrawler]

You are only required to show your papers to an atf or irs agent as it is considered a tax document .

I saw an 11 inch ar at the last 1500 as well and it was not papered not for me thanks

 

[Lex Concord]

I'm hoping for jury nullification, personally.

+1

 

[Lex Concord]

My read is this:

1. The NFA laws are unConstitutional. Period.
2. The NFA laws are sadly legal. Period.

These two statements are mutually exclusive.

While the NFA laws may be the de facto law of the land, any federal law contrary to the Constitution is illegal, SCotUS decisions notwithstanding.

I know, it's nitpicking, but I think it important that more people understand this nuance.

7. All the NFA laws need to be repealed so that the law and the Constitution come back in line. The only temporary fix to this is jury nullification which is what scutter was getting at. And I am happy to get in that line and pull that trial.

That about covers it.

Agreed

 

[curraheeguns]

You are only required to show your papers to an atf or irs agent as it is considered a tax document .

Not exactly, if you are in possession of a machine gun and you refuse to show your stamp to a local or state LEO then he would have enough probable cause to make an arrest for a Class C Felony under IC 35-47-5-8, if you were shooting the machine gun at the time then it is a B Felony under 35-47-5-9.

If it is a SBR or AOW and you refuse to show your stamp the LEO would have enough reasonable suspicion to detain you until ATF arrives to sort things out. Larger departments like IMPD have officers detailed full time to ATF. They have both State and Federal arrest powers.