Saudi girl, 13, sentenced to 90 lashes

[mrjarrell]

As someone who's actually lived in a communist country, I can say that petty thieves and offenders were not beaten. They were publicly shamed and then sent off to the farms. Bad offenders were shot. What some folks seem to be wanting here is their own form of American Sharia. They're not commies. They're Taliban.

 

[dross]

I'm 47, and the crime rate is roughly about as low right now as it's ever been in my lifetime. And that's with the reporting being more efficient than it was years ago, which most likely indicates that right now I'm living with the lowest crime rate since I was born in 1962.

What need do we have to inflict a barbaric punishment that can't be undone if later proven to be a mistake?

 

[SootKing]

Hey guys, I just wanted to remind you commies that we live in the United States, not Saudi Arabia. You may want to look into an old document called the Bill of Rights. It's the first ten amendments to the United State's Constitution, for those of you condoning public floggings in the US, who aren't aware of this document.

For those of you seeking harsher punishment for crimes, it's called jail, and although I've never been there, I don't hear good things about it.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

yea i agree..who the heck wants PUBLIC executions. shucks if i was gonna get executed for not buying health insurance i wouldnt want a bunch of people watching

 

[lashicoN]

Actually Flogging was used as a punishment in the United States up until 1947.

Collecting Delaware Books - Red Hannah - Delaware Whipping Post

And still today our right to keep and bear arms is infringed. Just because the Government is doing it, doesn't make it right...or even Constitutional.

Yeah..we all know how well putting someone in jail works! you NEVER hear of anyone who has been to jail commiting a crime after they have been released from jail.

now if youll excuse me I'm going to go rub one out to my poster of Stalin.

The commie thing was a joke. My attempt at keeping my reply light. But honestly, beating the crap out of people doesn't work any better than jail. I could basically say the same thing right back to you. Any kid who gets a spanking never does something wrong again. Maybe criminals won't be deterred by anything, jail or public floggings. Out of common sense, which kid is going to grow up with more problems...the one who got his toys (freedoms) taken away and had to sit in time-out (jail) for a specific duration, or the one who got flogged on a regular basis?

Last, if a punishment is in common use, it is not, by definition, unusual, and to lock someone in a cell for a period of years could also be called "cruel".

It's all about stopping the crimes. For those who choose to criminally and violently disregard the rights of others, reminding them that actions have consequences in a free society is not a bad idea.

Blessings,
Bill

In most cases, I would probably agree with you. But as I said before, just because the Government does some on a regular basis doesn't make it right or Constitutional. Stopping crimes is a great thing, criminals should be punished. Where we don't see eye-to-eye, I guess, is that I don't believe a 13 year old girl should be whipped NINETY times for bringing a cell phone to school.

 

[HK45Mark23]

Remember if you don’t commit a crime, you don’t get punished!

To many are like the mother of a bad kid, begging the father to not whip the child. The child then grows up to be a criminal.

If you are afraid of punishment, you are less likely to commit the crime!

I say let’s bring back public hangings, floggings, branding and the good ole stocks!

It may be more in line with the bill of rights to be tried and punished immediately if found guilty.

Swift justice!

Stop spending the tax dollars supporting some sicko in prison who puts the lives of the guards at risk and may break out and harm other innocent people.

 

[irishfan]

I don't have a problem with public beheading or removal of hands for murder and repeated theft. If you don't want the punishment then don't commit the crime and I am guessing it is a lot cheaper than having a man who committed a triple murder set in prison for 60 years being fed and cared for with our tax dollars. However, I agree the punishment should fit the crime and flogging for a cell phone is a bit much.

 

[HK45Mark23]

Any kid who gets a spanking never does something wrong again. Maybe criminals won't be deterred by anything, jail or public floggings.

There is a recent study that shows children who are spanked during adolescence are less likely to commit crime and more likely to be productive citizens in society.

If a criminal commits a heinous crime such as rape, murder then they should be publically hanged.

In this nothing has changed, we still execute people who commit murders, but we should do it weekly in the town square and at the end of a rope.

This brings it to the forefront of the people psyche and reminds them of the price that will be paid for their actions if their actions are to harm someone.

 

[lashicoN]

Actually, a "recent study" I know about shows exactly the opposite. In this "recent study" I read, it says that kids who get beat regularly grow up to be psychopaths. In fact, in the "recent study" it was something like 90% of kids who are beat murder up for four people in their life. This and much more information can be found in this "recent study" that I speak of.

On a serious note, I don't think watching humans beings die would be as delightful as you may think. On your next family trip, perhaps you should vacation in Saudi Arabia and watch a couple 13 year old girls get whipped 90 times and watch a couple people have their heads cut off because they were walking down the street with someone of the opposite sex who wasn't related to them. Watching a human being get murdered should not be something that makes you salivate and reach for a bucket of popcorn. Do you really think a 3 year old kid watching these public murders is going to understand what is going on? Or will he just assume murder is an everyday okay thing to do? I'm not saying either way, because I don't know. Thankfully I didn't watch people get hanged when I was a child, so I can't tell you how I perceived it.

 

[dross]

I don't have a problem with public beheading or removal of hands for murder and repeated theft. If you don't want the punishment then don't commit the crime and I am guessing it is a lot cheaper than having a man who committed a triple murder set in prison for 60 years being fed and cared for with our tax dollars. However, I agree the punishment should fit the crime and flogging for a cell phone is a bit much.

What happens if you take off the guy's hands, and later through appeal, it's determined he was innocent?

 

[nawainwright]

Actually, a "recent study" I know about shows exactly the opposite. In this "recent study" I read, it says that kids who get beat regularly grow up to be psychopaths. In fact, in the "recent study" it was something like 90% of kids who are beat murder up for four people in their life. This and much more information can be found in this "recent study" that I speak of.

I'm hoping this was meant to be in purple....because you've got to be kidding.


and for posterity I would like to point out to ALL involved, there is a BIG difference between disciplining children and beating them.

 

[Fletch]

What happens if you take off the guy's hands, and later through appeal, it's determined he was innocent?

Oh well, at least justice was served and order preserved. He was guilty of something, or he never would have been caught in the first place.

 

[dross]

Remember if you don’t commit a crime, you don’t get punished!
.

With respect, this statement is naive to the point of being dangerous.

 

[Fletch]

With respect, this statement is naive to the point of being dangerous.

I'd rep you again if I could.

 

[infidel]

The thought that some people have of degrading our judicial system to the level of Saudi Arabia's is absolutely disturbing.

It has been mentioned that jail is not as effective as flogging and other such punishments. Here's a thought - fix the system, don't replace it. Stop letting people off with a slap on the wrists. The reason jail doesn't work on some individuals is because you have to do SO much before you get jail time, let alone serious time. People will commit crimes because they might get probation and not 2 months in jail. Change this and watch what happens.

Per the Bill of Rights, this would be flat unconstitutional. Surely the patriots of this sight are not condoning going against our Bill of Rights? Sure it used to be practiced in the USA earlier, but you know what? Women couldn't vote, blacks had to ride on the back of the bus, and we had a period of prohibition. Just because we have done things in the past sure doesn't make the practice right.

Also, if this practice were to be brought here, who is to say what the punishment is? Who decides if you lose a hand or get 100 lashings or 50 hours in the stockade? I don't believe any man has the rights to decide that for another man. If this system were to be in place, what would qualify for these punishments? Rape? Murder? Maybe if our current government gets more radical they could steamroll "Right Wing Extremists" into that list using fear of terrorism as an excuse (tin foily I know but I'm making a point). We cannot trust our government to have this power over us.

Once something like this sets into our government, I fee there would hardly be any stopping it. Now, if you completely trust the government this isn't something for you to worry about, but I have a feeling there may be more like me on this sight that does not want our government to be given the right to enact this punishment on its citicens.

This is America. People advocating the adoption of Saudi Arabian punishments that go against our standing Bill of Right to the Constitution of the United States of America leaves me feeling hopeless, angry, and dumbfounded.

 

[Bill of Rights]

...

Last, if a punishment is in common use, it is not, by definition, unusual, and to lock someone in a cell for a period of years could also be called "cruel".

It's all about stopping the crimes. For those who choose to criminally and violently disregard the rights of others, reminding them that actions have consequences in a free society is not a bad idea.

Blessings,
Bill

In most cases, I would probably agree with you. But as I said before, just because the Government does some on a regular basis doesn't make it right or Constitutional. Stopping crimes is a great thing, criminals should be punished. Where we don't see eye-to-eye, I guess, is that I don't believe a 13 year old girl should be whipped NINETY times for bringing a cell phone to school.

I'll go you one farther. I don't think the 13 year old girl or anyone else should be whipped nor even TOUCHED for bringing a cell phone to school. At the most, I'd say IF it became a distraction, it should be taken away and returned to her parent at the end of the school day, which is why I specified what I did:For those who choose to criminally and violently disregard the rights of others, reminding them that actions have consequences in a free society is not a bad idea. I'm talking about punishment for violent crime, delivered swiftly and surely: If it takes three days to determine their guilt or innocence, that's too long. Also, I'm not talking about disfiguring someone, I'm talking about, in essence, one hell of a spanking.

You made the point that spankings do not always prevent misdeeds from happening, but I think most of us who received them growing up can cite at least one behavior that sent us to the woodshed and which we never EVER repeated. We might have done something else, but we learned hard and well that that was not something we wanted to do again.

Another example: If you knew that using the copier at work for personal copies without permission would definitely mean you'd be suspended from work for a week without pay, no exceptions, but that with permission, no punishment would ensue... Would I be wrong in guessing that you'd ensure you had permission in writing before you made any personal copies? I know I sure would, and that's just a monetary punishment. See one guy suspended and fighting to pay his bills and it's not somewhere you want to go.
The only fallacy I can see with this is that no one commits a crime thinking s/he's going to get caught, and that would certainly be problematic in deterrence... I'm not sure what the answer is to that problem.

Bottom line, I think we're both in agreement that corporal punishment in this case was criminally excessive and exemplary of a government gone too far. Where we may differ is on what place that type of response may appropriately have in an effective system of justice.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[lashicoN]

I'm hoping this was meant to be in purple....because you've got to be kidding.


and for posterity I would like to point out to ALL involved, there is a BIG difference between disciplining children and beating them.

Yes, I was being sarcastic. I thought the four or five quotation marks and - "on a serious note" would replace purpling the entire paragraph. I'm new to purpling lol.

 

[rambone]

Playing devil's advocate here for a minute...

I don't think any INGO'ers said that any punishments should come without a trial, or that this particular punishment matches this particular crime. Only that they wouldn't mind it if judges had the option of issuing corporal punishment to convicted criminals.


Carry on...

 

[BloodEclipse]

I like the debate going on here.
I agree there is a major difference in beating a child and administering corporal punishment.
Beating is done by fools who need beaten themselves.
Corporal punishment is not done in anger, and the punishment is made to fit the offense.
Slapping a kids hand for grabbing or touching something they have been told not to, cannot be compared to punching them in the face for the same reason.

 

[dross]

I like the debate going on here.
I agree there is a major difference in beating a child and administering corporal punishment.
Beating is done by fools who need beaten themselves.
Corporal punishment is not done in anger, and the punishment is made to fit the offense.
Slapping a kids hand for grabbing or touching something they have been told not to, cannot be compared to punching them in the face for the same reason.

I was subjected to corporal punishment as a child. I don't believe in it. I don't think it should be illegal, within certain bounds, but I feel pretty strongly about not using it.

I have a three year old daughter who has never been struck as a punishment. (only for recreation - joking) She's very well behaved, I'm told. (As she's my only child, I don't have much of a reference.) That's not to say that's always the case, I just think it can be done another way.

Striking a 13 year old girl with a cane like in the article enrages me, and would likely experience my intervention. Hence my avoiding the barbaric places of the world, unless I'm seeing them through the peep sights of my M16. (I know they're M4s now, I'm old school.)

 

[ATF Consumer]

The whole problem I have with corporal punishment is that someone is "authorized" to carry out an action that would otherwise be against the law. This kind of goes along with those other threads about LEOs being above the law where they can ignore particular laws to catch a criminal.