Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery

[jamil]

Wait just a gol darn moment there. Didn't your avatar used to be blue in color ? !

Now it's purple ! Don't tell me you're trying to inject irony here ? ! !

Enouh of that already - my "reading between the lines" glasses aren't back from Dr. Tavel yet !

eh, I think it's just one of those "diseases" that pachyderms get if you get my drift. If he takes his meds regularly he should be blue in no time.

 

[Woobie]

In the interest of intellectual honesty: If those negotiating with an employer over wages form a union to negotiate as a group, despite their employer needing them to do a job and their specialized skill set, I find not so many of INGO are willing to accept the results of those negotiations as legitimate.

Speaking for myself, I don't necessarily have a problem with collective bargaining as a practice. What I do have a problem with is the crooks running the labor unions doing said bargaining. I also have a problem with what they do with the dues they collect.

 

[BugI02]

If it's 12 on 1 it's only because there are that many people here willing to share their opinions vs the one person who is willing to share his. You are every bit as animated about your opinion as we are about ours. And that's okay. I don't mind a lively discussion where people decide not to get their feelings hurt over every little thing. Ocasionally I guess people do forget that part.

And I don't miss the fact that the general population does not mostly share my opinion, they share yours. I think that is a terrible mistake. And I think if you and I could live long enough to see the logical conclusion of it, we'd see that powerful people do what they want anyway whether they're running corporations or governments or both. Your favored punitive tax policies or the transformation of this country from primarily capitalist to democratic socialism, will not stop the rich and powerful from having all the impact on policy. The only way to put policy back in the hands of the people is to limit government's power.

QFT. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have NO masters. Also true -"The only way to put policy back in the hands of the people is to limit [STRIKE]government's[/STRIKE] money's power.

 

[BugI02]

Speaking for myself, I don't necessarily have a problem with collective bargaining as a practice. What I do have a problem with is the crooks running the labor unions doing said bargaining. I also have a problem with what they do with the dues they collect.

But that is other peoples money and, as argued, not your concern

 

[Woobie]

But that is other peoples money and, as argued, not your concern

Not until they bankrupt their employers, then run to congress for a handout of my money. Then it is my concern.

 

[churchmouse]

Not until they bankrupt their employers, then run to congress for a handout of my money. Then it is my concern.

I was always at odds with how the union spent my dues. They are a corrupt bunch.

 

[jamil]

But that is other peoples money and, as argued, not your concern

I think I missed something. I think there's nothing wrong with people joining a group to improve their bargaining power. I don't think anyone has argued against that in this thread. I am against employers or unions using government to club the other with.

To Woobie's point crook is irrelevant. The crooks often reside on both sides and what can you do, make being a crook more illegal?

 

[BugI02]

Not until they bankrupt their employers, then run to congress for a handout of my money. Then it is my concern.

Yep. Its a good thing CEOs never do that ... Oh, wait!

 

[BugI02]

I think I missed something. I think there's nothing wrong with people joining a group to improve their bargaining power. I don't think anyone has argued against that in this thread. I am against employers or unions using government to club the other with.

To Woobie's point crook is irrelevant. The crooks often reside on both sides and what can you do, make being a crook more illegal?

You are correct.

 

[MisterChester]

The message is clear. Own your job and don't be beholden to someone else to raise your wages.

Wait.....maybe I don't want to do that:


CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers - Forbes

The only way you get the huge CEO pay gaps is by ignoring about 99% of the CEOs in the country and only counting the largest companies.

It's not the growth, it's the disparity. And the golden parachutes... And the bailouts... And the slap on the wrist when you lose millions of dollars (the fact that no one went to prison over the 2008 crisis is baffling)... And the ability to buy politicians...

 

[churchmouse]

It's not the growth, it's the disparity. And the golden parachutes... And the bailouts... And the slap on the wrist when you lose millions of dollars (the fact that no one went to prison over the 2008 crisis is baffling)... And the ability to buy politicians...

To gather up/prosecute/jail all involved would be beyond the systems ability.

 

[MisterChester]

To gather up/prosecute/jail all involved would be beyond the systems ability.

America Lost $10.2 Trillion Of Wealth In 2008 - Business Insider

I think at least a RICO investigation would have sufficed. Worked on the mafia.

 

[rhino]

Wait just a gol darn moment there. Didn't your avatar used to be blue in color ? !

Now it's purple ! Don't tell me you're trying to inject irony here ? ! !

Enough of that already - my "reading between the lines" glasses aren't back from Dr. Tavel yet !

eh, I think it's just one of those "diseases" that pachyderms get if you get my drift. If he takes his meds regularly he should be blue in no time.

My purple suit was at the cleaners and now it's back. On the bright side, I'm no longer winking at people who do not wish to be exposed to winking.

Was that a euphemism?

Re: labor unions - I don't have a problem with labor unions as long as:

1. Membership is 100% voluntary, and
2. Collusion with government does not exist.

People bargaining as a group is fine, but having laws that force business owners to accept their terms is not by a long shot.

 

[Woobie]

It's not the growth, it's the disparity. And the golden parachutes... And the bailouts... And the slap on the wrist when you lose millions of dollars (the fact that no one went to prison over the 2008 crisis is baffling)... And the ability to buy politicians...

Disparity? So should there be a maximum ratio of income between the rich and the poor? What will that be? Who will set the ratio?

If by golden parachute you mean severance package, then that is a negotiated term between an employee and employer. Lots of salaried employees get them, not just executives, and it is in the interest of the company to give them, because they include a number of binding agreements such as non-compete clauses. Are you saying that an employee or group thereof should not have the right to negotiate the terms of compensation with employers?

On bailouts we agree. Your failure is not my fault, nor should it be my financial burden. But gubmint loves them. Why? It gives us all justification to point out the income disparity and golden parachutes. That divides us along lines of class, which is one of .gov's main tools for wielding control over the masses.

If they received a slap on the wrist, then you must have a crime they committed in mind. Losing millions is not a crime, it's failure. That failure is between the executives and the shareholder appointed board of directors.

 

[Woobie]

There are some common themes arising in this thread, along with a couple of extras to help illustrate, that I would like to bring to everyone's attention:

Collective bargaining = good. Collective bargaining agents controlling government by buying politicians = bad

Profit = good. Profitable companies controlling government by buying politicians = bad

Owning your own assets = good. Giving your assets to government instead of your kids = bad

Giving money to help people = good. Giving money to government so they can waste it in the name of helping people = bad

Anybody see any commonality here? Oh, and if you're confused:

Money = tool. Tools are tools, they don't have a will, can't choose to do good things or bad things. They are just applied to a task by someone who is good or evil or a moron.

 

[jamil]

My purple suit was at the cleaners and now it's back. On the bright side, I'm no longer winking at people who do not wish to be exposed to winking.

Was that a euphemism?

What? It's a damn SUIT!? Well okay, but that blows the whole image.

Re: labor unions - I don't have a problem with labor unions as long as:

1. Membership is 100% voluntary, and
2. Collusion with government does not exist.

People bargaining as a group is fine, but having laws that force business owners to accept their terms is not by a long shot.

virtual rep will have to do because the cost to fuel Fenway's Bugatti is too high for him to afford the GOLDEN REP VBulletin plan, which allows anyone to rep anyone (including self) as often as they want.

 

[jamil]

There are some common themes arising in this thread, along with a couple of extras to help illustrate, that I would like to bring to everyone's attention:

Collective bargaining = good. Collective bargaining agents controlling government by buying politicians = bad

Profit = good. Profitable companies controlling government by buying politicians = bad

Owning your own assets = good. Giving your assets to government instead of your kids = bad

Giving money to help people = good. Giving money to government so they can waste it in the name of helping people = bad

Anybody see any commonality here? Oh, and if you're confused:

Money = tool. Tools are tools, they don't have a will, can't choose to do good things or bad things. They are just applied to a task by someone who is good or evil or a moron.

same rep spiel as above. People keep saying it's the commie rep system but really it's just capitalism gone awry. Cheap ass Fenway won't upgrade to the plan that offers infinite rep.

 

[Woobie]

same rep spiel as above. People keep saying it's the commie rep system but really it's just capitalism gone awry. Cheap ass Fenway won't upgrade to the plan that offers infinite rep.

If the richest 1% weren't hoarding all the rep, there would be plenty to go around for the rest of us. Maybe when they get shootered we can have them give 17-40% of it back to Fenway, and he can distribute it to those "hardest hit."

 

[jamil]

If the richest 1% weren't hoarding all the rep, there would be plenty to go around for the rest of us. Maybe when they get shootered we can have them give 17-40% of it back to Fenway, and he can distribute it to those "hardest hit."

Yeah, and hiding your rep in offshore accounts shouldn't be allowed either. Everyone should see how much rep you've hoarded away.

And all those people with the golden rep balls...stars...whatever, they just take all the rep so the rest of us can't have any. We should shame them for taking it all for themselves. They're all members of the rep pyramid club, AKA the "I've-got-mine" club. And the more they take, the less we have. I mean, it's like a pie. If their slice is bigger, that means my slice is smaller. I just want my fair share. Equal slices for all.

Edit: Um. wait. never mind the comment about hiding rep in offshore accounts.

 

[MisterChester]

There are some common themes arising in this thread, along with a couple of extras to help illustrate, that I would like to bring to everyone's attention:

Collective bargaining = good. Collective bargaining agents controlling government by buying politicians = bad

Profit = good. Profitable companies controlling government by buying politicians = bad

Owning your own assets = good. Giving your assets to government instead of your kids = bad

Giving money to help people = good. Giving money to government so they can waste it in the name of helping people = bad

Anybody see any commonality here? Oh, and if you're confused:

Money = tool. Tools are tools, they don't have a will, can't choose to do good things or bad things. They are just applied to a task by someone who is good or evil or a moron.

I don't want anyone buying politicians, it doesn't matter if they are a wealthy CEO or hedge fund manager. Or part of a union. Or just anyone really. I have no problem with unions or collective bargaining as long as they don't buy anyone off. They have every right to capitalize their labor in a capitalist society.