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Rule Number One: All Guns are always loaded
- Thread starter SubicWarrior1988
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Completely understandable sentiment shared by many. I really sought to defuse any further arguing through this medium. Having met and trained with ATM before, I consider it best to leave it be 'til I can address this issue in person.Since it's late and I can't sleep, may as well have some entertainment. Meant this in a different context on a more serious topic, but might apply here just as well.
[video=youtube;Dt__jY0_GCg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt__jY0_GCg[/video]
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Me too.
Unloaded is no excuse to point a gun in an unsafe direction.
Even though it may seem quite different than pointing a loaded gun at you, a violation of loaded gun handling, it is still pointing a gun at you - a violation of safe gun handling.
Do you still wonder why I favor 'safely' over 'as if it is loaded'?
Perhaps, but the opposite of safely is unsafely. The opposite of loaded is unloaded.
One of those is absolutely clear to everyone, the other seems to work for some while offering excuses for others.
I do intend to at least post a summary of our face to face discussion here, but I'll hold off on responding to post #380 because it seemed more like a teaser of discussion to come than an actual attempt to refute any of my positions.
Glad you find it interesting.
I can't wait. Better record it so you can take better notes.I do intend to at least post a summary of our face to face discussion here, but I'll hold off on responding to post #380 because it seemed more like a teaser of discussion to come than an actual attempt to refute any of my positions.
Glad you find it interesting.
+10 That's why I especially like the commentary from Cooper himself on Rule 2 (highlighted in red)
RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.
For what you attribute to be the three rules that I assume are under so much discussion, what is the source. As I've posted upthread, your listed third rule is not part of the NRA three rules or the Appleseed rules.
I may be typing something wrong but I cannot even turn up a web presence for Revere's Raiders to see what they list
It's Riders, as found at the bottom of all my posts, specifically posts #365 and #366 in response to yours.
We were in agreement that 3 were sufficient, weren't we?
If there's no push back on the sufficiency of the 3 NRA rules for safe gun handling, as listed and described here, nothing amiss with using these to instruct novices and experts alike, I will continue to use and advance this universal, concise and effective system of safe gun handling. I just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious or necessary.
I like that they maintain an order of importance, so that by the time one gets down to the third, if one were to commit the unfortunate but common error of dismissing whatever follows once unloaded, at least they would have handled it safely during the initial coonfingering.
I also like that other good ideas and tips have their own list rather than muddying the mix of critical steps to safe gun handling.
Last call in this thread for responses to questions I've asked, points I've made, or anything insufficient with these 3 rules to consider. If I don't get anything else, I'll let this one go and resume with a new thread after meeting with others and defining how I'd like to proceed. I'll link back to this one for reference.
Thanks to everyone who was actually willing to discuss this topic, I really do appreciate your perspectives and feedback.
I like that they maintain an order of importance, so that by the time one gets down to the third, if one were to commit the unfortunate but common error of dismissing whatever follows once unloaded, at least they would have handled it safely during the initial coonfingering.
I also like that other good ideas and tips have their own list rather than muddying the mix of critical steps to safe gun handling.
Last call in this thread for responses to questions I've asked, points I've made, or anything insufficient with these 3 rules to consider. If I don't get anything else, I'll let this one go and resume with a new thread after meeting with others and defining how I'd like to proceed. I'll link back to this one for reference.
Thanks to everyone who was actually willing to discuss this topic, I really do appreciate your perspectives and feedback.
The third NRA rule above is in it's proper place as a step in safe gun handling. When picking a gun up:
1st - keep it pointed in a safe direction.
2nd - keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
3rd - unload/verify that it is unloaded. This is, of course, assuming that your intention is to not allow it to fire a projectile (gun's only got one job). If you do want it to fire a projectile, you would naturally load and/or verify that it is loaded.
Simple, concise, effective, and priority is maintained throughout the steps.
Regarding "traditional #1" or 'All guns are always loaded', it seems bizarre to suggest unloading a gun prior to ensuring a safe direction to keep it pointed with one's finger off the trigger.
That's making the assumption, from much of the feedback given in this thread, that ensuring a gun is unloaded is what ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED is supposed to mean. Without quite a bit of follow-up explanation, I don't think it would mean that to most who first hear or read it. It doesn't mean the same thing to many who've already adopted it and pass it on to others.
I think that telling people to unload any gun they don't intend to fire a projectile from is far better than any cryptic metaphor which is supposed to hopefully lead them to that same conclusion.
Besides that, all guns are not always loaded, so some are still prone to dismissing anything which follows once they ensure and double check with their pinky that the gun is 'safe' i.e. unloaded. They were handed a rule, the first of other, more important rules, which they could disprove. They just don't get the mindset intended by the metaphor.
Well then, for those cases I say scrap your intentions and give them something which might work better for them, might be more clear, might be a more rational prioritization of safe gun handling steps. And, if it does work better for those who don't get ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED (people like me), it just might work for everyone.
It's Riders, as found at the bottom of all my posts, specifically posts #365 and #366 in response to yours.
We were in agreement that 3 were sufficient, weren't we?
I regret to inform you that you have mistaken exasperation for acquiescence
Well then don't I feel silly. When you claimed that both sets of rules as followed wind up in exactly the same place, I thought you meant it.
Would you at least be so kind as to explain what you really meant?
Well, I finally rooted around at the correct website ( tip o' the hat to ATM ) and found the Revere's Riders rules for safe gun handling. There appear to be four
Safety Rules
• Always Keep The Gun Pointed in a Safe Direction
• Always Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until You Are Ready to Shoot
• Always Keep The Gun Unloaded Until Ready to Use
• Everyone is Responsible for Safety
Again no concern/admonition to know your target and what is beyond it. I'm afraid I stand by my assertion that truncated versions of Cooper's four rules are tailored specifically to training at a range - a small subset of the many situations in which one may find oneself handling a firearm
I still see these amputated rule sets as simplified Cooper's rules, four rules with training wheels
Safety Rules
• Always Keep The Gun Pointed in a Safe Direction
• Always Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until You Are Ready to Shoot
• Always Keep The Gun Unloaded Until Ready to Use
• Everyone is Responsible for Safety
Again no concern/admonition to know your target and what is beyond it. I'm afraid I stand by my assertion that truncated versions of Cooper's four rules are tailored specifically to training at a range - a small subset of the many situations in which one may find oneself handling a firearm
I still see these amputated rule sets as simplified Cooper's rules, four rules with training wheels
I was refuting your assertion that somehow the fourth rule (actually the first) made the situation of firearms handling less safe. In the severely constrained model of the real world you posit, wherein everyone obeys all the rules all the time, I claim that the end result would be the same. Ergo, the four rules are not less safe than some proper subsets of the four consisting of three
Outside of that hypothetical and very limited microcosm, in the many and varied real world situations, the four rules would be superior to any version of three I've yet seen
Try not to confuse every list of safety rules you find with the actual safe gun handling rules we've adopted from the NRA and which I propose are universal (even if many lists you will find may contain some of either or both).
I've already addressed your concern regarding knowing your taget and what lies beyond in a previous response which you seem to have skipped. It is an expansion of what constitutes a safe direction, not an unrelated item deserving of its own number. You'll find it detailed below the NRA rules of safe gun handling among other good ideas, tips, expansions relating to gun safety.
Please do try to make a case for these being tailored only to training at a range. Really give them some specific scrutiny and show them to fail your universal test. Expose the training wheels one should properly "grow out of" when they want to handle guns safely everywhere else.
Please do try.
