Role Reversal???

[abnk]

I only used police as an easy example; not because they are involved in most shootings. If you and I draw at the same time and you are a better shooter, you are going to score the first hit whether you use a Glock or 1911.

I agree we have taken this way off-topic; I will stop here.

 

[465guy]

You keep talking about the 1911s superior first shot hit potential based an FBI study. But you can't provide any info on the study and its not online.

We have no date, no details, nothing. Just you talking about it all the time.

I think the 1911 is a fine gun. But I also think with out details that study you keep referring to tells us nothing. If it makes you feel better about your choice in a carry pistol I guess that is good.

As I said in another thread where you asked, prior to retiring, I owned a company that had a police officer on staff full time, he currently works for the Villa Park, IL PD and is also the DuPage County Homeland Defense liason officer; he provided me the data, it was not on-line and I no longer have the documents since I cleaned out my desk last fall and didn't really think to keep them. It does not make it any less true.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Not to jump into the middle of this, but I think that 465 is on to something. For a study to be well accepted it needs to have undergone scientific scrutiny and be well documented and referenced. But reread that statement before you jump on it. The study melensdad is referring to may be the gold standard in that area of study- but we can't be sure without a reference or common knowledge. Also, it could be a poorly designed "study" that is more anecdotal knowledge. For that matter, the human memory isnt very good so some of the details may be lost is transmission. Without being able to read the study, we are left to speculate. I am not saying that melensdad has the facts wrong or right, but after having followed this thread for a few days I think that most of the comments are about how scientific or accurate the study is, NOT about whether or not the 1911 is a perfect/acceptable/crappy format. At least thats what I am trying to say.

 

[melensdad]

As I said, I'm sorry that I tossed the reports when I retired last year, but the fact that I can't produce them doesn't invalidate them. There were also studies that showed that the 357 Magnum yielded the most 1 shot kills. I can't produce that study either.

The studies were done by the FBI. Does that mean they are perfect, no. But they may be the best that exist. They were derived from actual shooting events, not range tests.

So if you choose to dismiss them because I can't produce them, I'm fine with that. But before you suggest they are wrong, I say you need to prove it.

FWIW, nobody said the 1911 is the best platform and nobody said the 357 is the best chambering. People seem to be reading too much into things and getting their undies in a bunch about it.

By the way, dig up these studies I think they may offer partial insight, but not complete answers:
Urey W. Patrick, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness (Quantico, VA: Federal Bureau of Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, 1989).
W. J. Burchey and D. E. Frank, Police Handgun Ammunition Incapacitation Effects (Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice Report 100-83, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1984) vol. 1
R. C. Dobbyn, W. J. Burchey, and L. D. Shubin, An Evaluation of Police Handgun Ammunition: Summary Report (Washington, DC: Law Enforcement Standards Program, Report 0101.01, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1975).
1989 Ammunition Tests (Quantico, VA: Federal Bureau of Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, 1990)
1992 Ammunition Tests (Quantico, VA: Federal Bureau of Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, 1993), vol. 4.
William E. Stone "Improvements in handgun ammunition". FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin,The. Jan 1995.

 

[stillwaters]

My 2 cents in going back to the original thread: when I was a bench jeweler, I kept my 9 mm in one of those 'under the counter' holster-type attachments. Upon further thought of the issue, I swiched out to a .45 to avoid any chance of the perp getting up again. There was also a .357 next to the cash register, an 1100 shotgun in the corner, and my boss' .45 in his drawer. In some jobs with a lot of moving around, sometimes its just plain inconvenient to have a piece on you, but it doesn't mean you can't have one within reach!

 

[baldmax]

I think the .38 Special has killed more people than any other cartridge. It is the most abundant.

 

[melensdad]

I think the .38 Special has killed more people than any other cartridge. It is the most abundant.

I believe you are correct. But that does not make it the most effective, nor does it mean the weapons that utilize it are the easiest to deploy quickly and accurately. It just means the weapons are the most common.