Reverting to tribalism?

[jamil]

I'm not so sure He did things against "His religion" as much as he did things against the way His religion/law was being "enforced". I think He fulfilled or completed His religion. (I'm not saying it right).
"

Far be it from me to say what Christian is or isn't, but back in the day, that's what I was taught, that Jesus fulfilled the Law so that he could be the blameless sacrifice. The lamb. So if he's blameless, he couldn't have broken the Law. Probably broke a few Rabbi's rules though.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeah. We've become so ideologically entrenched and so divided that it's come to that. I dunno. I guess I think compassion should outweigh ideology in day to day interactions. So if the Truck driver had a Trump bumper sticker on his tow truck, would she have refused the service? I don't know. Depends how desperate she was, I guess. The whole thing seems like an opportunity for an informative conversation between the two was wasted.

But this discussion about the validity of the woman's "disability" seems mostly irrelevant. The one side wants to make it more relevant than it is so the Truck driver looks like an even bigger dickhead. The other side wants to question the validity of the woman's disability to mitigate that. Who should care? He didn't refuse her because he was judging her for feigning some disability. He refused to serve her because she supports Sanders. So why does his scale of dickheadedness even matter? The point is, we've gotten so divided, so far apart politically, that it's becoming increasingly difficult to be civil with one another, even to let compassion outweigh politics. Probably being a dickhead about it will only make that worse.

Sidetracking the main issue with irrelevant "issues", gosh, that's pretty much our election climate right now. The *car* was disabled, she was stuck, and the guy left here there. I've stopped and helped women who's car slid off the road in the snow and towed them back up on the road before long before I was a cop because that's the right thing to do.

Why do I have difficulty with the right to refuse service to anyone?

Well, if you actually believe in a free market than what determines the transaction is price. Artificially limiting the supply (by certain businesses being unwilling to sell their product to you) creates 2nd class citizens, economically and socially. If your supply is lower and your demand is the same, your market prices increase. It's not as overt as if I put a sign on the door that said "all prices + 10% for Christians" but it's the same effect in the end. It is a way to both punish and to drive out those with who you disagree.

Note there's a difference between refusing to do business with and refusing to do custom work for. If I go to bakery and they won't sell me a cheeseburger, that's not economic punishment because they won't sell anybody a cheeseburger. If they won't sell me a doughnut because I'm a cop, though, that's economic punishment because they would sell the doughnut to other people willing to pay for it. I think both extremes of this issue have lost sight of that. There's real economic harm in not selling to a class of people, but if you wouldn't make "X" product for anyone there's no economic harm in refusing to make it for a particular person.

This guy would have towed someone with no bumper stickers or ones more toward his political leaning.

 

[jamil]

Relativity being the key term there. My guess is that the other side has their own version of the same scale and guess who they put on the losing side of theirs?




I didn't think we were talking about fighting a revolution, I thought we were talking about a guy refusing service to a woman.

"Sorry mom, I can't give you these Mothers Day flowers until you get that sticker off your car."

Well, that's probably the problem then. The extremes on each side are fighting a revolution. Everyone else is caught up in it. Morally, should an English tow truck driver feel compelled by compassion to tow a vehicle with a swastika in 1943? If people believe this is a revolutionary war they are fighting, I'm not surprised that political opposites would treat each other like enemies.

It's more complicated than that but this is all the time I have.

 

[Tombs]

I didn't think we were talking about fighting a revolution, I thought we were talking about a guy refusing service to a woman.

"Sorry mom, I can't give you these Mothers Day flowers until you get that sticker off your car."

If I was so worthless that I allowed my own mother to become that brainwashed, what kind of a son would I be?

 

[jamil]

If I was so worthless that I allowed my own mother to become that brainwashed, what kind of a son would I be?

As I've found out on INGO, it's not so easy to stop that from happening.

 

[JettaKnight]

If he is a Christian then no, he doesn't have the right to refuse service in this manner. In making Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior you give up these personal rights and become a slave to Christ.


I don't expect non-Christians to fully understand, but any true Christian should understand that giving of one's self to serve others must come before this petty crap. Keep it in the political realm and treat your enemies as you'd treat yourself / your family / etc.


If there was a Trump sticker, then all the Trumpers would say, "See democrats are petulant!" Here it's, "Meh, free country, yo." Honestly, I'm disgusted. Instead of accepting responsibility of being a decent person, we hide behind the guise of free capitalism. I'm as much of a capitalist is all of you, but more so, I'm a man with some integrity and compassion. Integrity isn't only about what you do when no one's looking, but what you do in the face of opposition.

What you do expect to have happen? The girl sees the errors of her ways and replaces the BERN with Trump? Hatred only begats hatred.




PS Stupid rep martinets won't let me hit Kut again.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Well, that's probably the problem then. The extremes on each side are fighting a revolution. Everyone else is caught up in it. Morally, should an English tow truck driver feel compelled by compassion to tow a vehicle with a swastika in 1943? If people believe this is a revolutionary war they are fighting, I'm not surprised that political opposites would treat each other like enemies.

It's more complicated than that but this is all the time I have.

I know. I've always agreed with things like: "From my cold dead hands", "Live free or die", and "I have not yet begun to fight!".

But I don't know what to think about: "Vote for the other side and you become my enemy".

 

[HoughMade]

Well, the Supreme Court of the United States has another view.

Well, Congress disagreed before SCOTUS got involved.

Hence, the use of the words: "...should have the right..." instead of the words: "...have the right..."

Words: they're how we communicate.

Anyhoo, Congress and SCOTUS have the right to be wrong like everyone else, but they have the executive branch's guns to enforce their wrongness, unlike​ everyone else.

 

[JettaKnight]

If I was so worthless that I allowed my own mother to become that brainwashed, what kind of a son would I be?

What kind of mother lets a son get brainwashed into voting for Trump?

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

If I was so worthless that I allowed my own mother to become that brainwashed, what kind of a son would I be?

I'd hope that I was the kind of son who loves his mom no matter what (since she loved my dumb a$$, times when nobody else did).





Edit: I don't care who my 86 year-old mom votes for, I'm too busy trying to get her to stop giving her credit card numbers to people over the phone.

 

[Alamo]

The left -- communist, socialist, whatever -- has long made it clear that only their power matters, that the restrictions and guidance of Christianity, society, Constitution, law, only apply to their opponents, not to them. Thus the truck driver must overlook the evil pasted all over her car because "turn the other cheek" and "treat your neighbor as yourself." But, if he believes a man should not lay with a man nor should a man "identify" as a woman and use the ladies' room, well then "BIGOT" and he's not only wrong but must be forced by law to let whoever wants to use whichever restroom or occupy his rent house that he has on the side. I think he's tired of this. So yes it's come to this, but he is not a poor example of a man -- it's just that however imperfect his understanding of Christianity, his understanding of how the game is played now is very good.



When the Iron Curtain came down, I had a chance to talk with a number of (former) communists (and yes that is the direction Bernie and Hillary want to take us -- face up to it). Not poseurs who lived in a free society while trying to wreck it, but people who had lived it, breathed it for decades, card carrying communists, who joined the armed forces to protect communism from the West. Some had joined the party because they had to to get ahead, some because they truly believed until the end.. Most had become disillusioned, but saw no other option. They held some pretty good positions, by Eastern Bloc standards had pretty good lives. Until it all fell apart.

There told me a couple interesting things. Once they had a chance to see the West, they said "Our eyes are opened, we will never go back, no matter how poor we are now." They did not want to return to their previous lives.

The other was that they were astounded to find out that communists and the Communist Party was allowed to exist in America. As former communists, their advice on how to deal with communists was "Round them all up and KILL THEM." They knew what communism (socialism, leftism, fascism, whatever you want to call it) was about. Of course we wouldn't do that, it's against our rules. (But it is not against the communists' rules.)

The Constitution works only as long as most people believe in it. We currently have a President that does not believe in it at all, and a majority of congress that doesn't either - otherwise they'd rein him in. That probably does reflect the situation in the US now. There is no one left running for President that really gives two flips about it either.

It's going to be a rougher and rougher ride in the future.

 

[JettaKnight]

It's going to be a rougher and rougher ride in the future.

I can agree with this.

The rest - not so much. The actions of our enemies cannot be allowed to dictate our morality or compassion. The beliefs of others is not a criteria that allows a Christian to withhold love.



As to the future, I've come to accept our post Christian society with some amount of hopefulness for the Church.

There's winnowing upon us - the wheat shall be separated from the chaff and the chaff will burn in the fire.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The other was that they were astounded to find out that communists and the Communist Party was allowed to exist in America. As former communists, their advice on how to deal with communists was "Round them all up and KILL THEM." They knew what communism (socialism, leftism, fascism, whatever you want to call it) was about. Of course we wouldn't do that, it's against our rules. (But it is not against the communists' rules.)

The Communist party has existed for right at a century in the US without taking the country over. It's almost like our founding fathers put a system in to place where we could allow dissent to exist without killing people for it.

"Turn your country into the nightmare we just left by killing those who politically oppose you!" should be answered with "yeah, we've been doing this for centuries without the need to kill people for dissenting views, thanks."

 

[jamil]

The Communist party has existed for right at a century in the US without taking the country over. It's almost like our founding fathers put a system in to place where we could allow dissent to exist without killing people for it.

"Turn your country into the nightmare we just left by killing those who politically oppose you!" should be answered with "yeah, we've been doing this for centuries without the need to kill people for dissenting views, thanks."

Don't you think that system is getting whittled away? We have SCOTUS justices who belive the constitution is a living document to be interpreted by the needs of the time. If the interpretation of the system that's supposed to protect its citizens from that is so fluid, how long can it protect us? And far from wanting to kill people for their views, I'd rather reaffirm the supremacy of the constitution as the rule of law. If that's even possible now.

 

[Tombs]

The Communist party has existed for right at a century in the US without taking the country over. It's almost like our founding fathers put a system in to place where we could allow dissent to exist without killing people for it.

"Turn your country into the nightmare we just left by killing those who politically oppose you!" should be answered with "yeah, we've been doing this for centuries without the need to kill people for dissenting views, thanks."

If the respect for the constitution that was held when it was written existed today, I would 100% agree with you.

But when I'm a justice away from being sent to prison because I say something "hurtful" to someone over the internet, I have to say, I think some serious examination of the situation needs to take place.

 

[T.Lex]

But when I'm a justice away from being sent to prison because I say something "hurtful" to someone over the internet, I have to say, I think some serious examination of the situation needs to take place.

Speaking of serious examination, do you really think you are "a justice away" from that?

Seriously?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Words: they're how we communicate.

Your reasonable observations have no place here! No place!

 

[miguel]

Speaking of serious examination, do you really think you are "a justice away" from that?

Seriously?

If he's a baker he may not be a justice away...

 

[T.Lex]

If he's a baker he may not be a justice away...

A baker in Martinsville, Indiana, could go to jail for saying something hurtful about someone over the internet?

 

[7urtle]

no ne believes youre evil

Someone who supports Sanders believes I'm evil. They think I am stealing their money, should pay way more than I currently do in taxes, and essentially demand that I leave my family to work more to maintain current status quo.

Yes, it is time to come to that because the left has been attacking me and my family on-stop for forty years. Game on.

If a thief steals your tractor, you go get your tractor back and confront the thief. If his buddies are sitting there telling him to rob me, the buddies are just as evil as the thief.

The disabled card was played because it's all they had.

She was driving, standing and talking normal. Seemed to be perfectly capable of most things to me.

Maybe the problem is how easy it is to be considered "disabled".

yes because you're the doctor and knows what problems people have