This is not about being tough or not. Just what your rights are in this situation. Again, after looking around it seems at least in indiana the alarm is not probable cause and any attempt to detain you is illegal. Contrary to what some people may think you lose no rights by going into a store. Every right you have out on the sidewalk applies inside Wally World as well. I'd like someone to name one right, just one, forfeited or restricted on private property. Hint there is none, so prepare to be refuted.
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Refusing to Stop for Anti-Theft Alarm
- Thread starter TheSpark
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
This is not about being tough or not. Just what your rights are in this situation. Again, after looking around it seems at least in indiana the alarm is not probable cause and any attempt to detain you is illegal. Contrary to what some people may think you lose no rights by going into a store. Every right you have out on the sidewalk applies inside Wally World as well. I'd like someone to name one right, just one, forfeited or restricted on private property. Hint there is none, so prepare to be refuted.
I love these "I have rights" arguments...usually comes from the same idiots who claim they have their right to "freedom of speech" on an internet message board of all places.
RedneckReject
Shooter
I'd love to see them call the cops on someone for refusing to stop, too. By the time the police show up whoever they asked to stop would be long gone. To be completely honest with you I don't generally care if I'm asked to stop. Usually they just take a quick look in the bag and don't really check anything. It's like they only do it in case a supervisor is watching.
Even if they were not gone the cops would ask what they have on them to stop them. When they say the alarm went off the officer would most likely tell everyone to have a good day. I've always complied as well, I don't steal and never have anything to hide. But I'm not obligated to, which is the point.
Why do we have to be idiots? Cant we just be trying to learn something? Man you hurt my feelings.
LANShark42
Master
I can't tell if you're in training to be a shoplifter or a dick. Either way, good luck.
That's my point-companies put these systems in place to protect their assets because the more they prevent going out the door, the less they jack up on everything else that I have to pay for out of my pocket. I think in most cases that I've seen, the employees asking to check have always taken a position at first that it was in their error that it occurred in the first place. If it's one of those devices that requires a special tool of sorts to remove it, best to find out at the door then get home and realize you have to come back. I know I've had an instance where I didn't hear an alarm (assuming it went off) and got home to find one of those security tags on a pair of pants and then had to go back to the store with receipt in hand.
A lot of people look down on the "mall cop" types or whatever, but at least they're doing something productive. They're just doing their jobs and it's just nothing more than plain decency and respect to them that you show what's in your bag and receipt when you know you didn't do anything wrong. If someone wants to be a ahole over their "rights" in such a situation, well, it says a lot about them.
From what I've read those devices are deterrents. They hardly ever stop someone actually taking merchandise through them. No one is ever an ahole for refusing to give up a right. Those who think that do not appreciate the rights they have. That, IMO, is very sad
Lets say you decide to wander into a store with a "no firearms" sign in Indiana while OCing. You are saying they cant ask you to leave for violating their private property rights because they choose to be a GFZ? Are you saying they dont have the right to ask you to leave for violating the rules of their private establishment?
How about if I'm having a cookout in my back yard and you have one too many beers and start throwing around the F-bomb and several other colorful words in front of my kids and then actively refuse to regulate your bacon hole after I ask politely. I cant ask you to leave because you wont STFU?
While neither "offense" above is a violation of your rights, a private property owner DOES have the right to set the rules in their establishments. You want to OC? Take it to the sidewalk outside the store where its not prohibited. Want to spew obscenities? Take it to the sidewalk outside my house. (or anywhere else)
How about I decide to light up a cigar in your living room but you are a non smoker? Its my right, so Im gonna do it. Right?
Im not saying either offense above on private property is a criminal offense. But to say ALL of your rights on the sidewalk extend inside private property is laughable. Remember, the "X amendment" protects you from the government, NOT from private entities. (within reason)
Last edited:
Sometimes it isn't the idiots fault. I was picking something up at Walmart and the girl swiped every side of the package and the alarm still went off.
I virtually always stop, unless there is no one there to begin with. Why give someone a hard time for doing their job? Especially 75 year old women and men? They are doing as they are asked, they are just working for a paycheck and I'll try to be nice to them and they will be nice back every time it seems. I have no desire to make some working stiff have a worse day.
If they actually think I'm stealing then I'll be upset, LP or something would annoy me but not the basic guy just doing his job.
You know why your receipt is checked at places like Best Buy? It's not stealing, it really is double checking the model numbers to ensure you are going out with right tv, laptop or whatever. If you pay for a $899 laptop and you refuse the check and then later go home and realize the idiot handed you a $499 model how smart are you then? You then have no way to prove it, and will be stuck. Upset yes, but stuck. Tvs are even worse, a single letter off on the model and you will have a whole different tv than you thought you were getting. Stock guy grabs from the back or top stock and you may not get the correct item all too easy, I've seen it happen.
Thieves are thieves, and they are good at it, I've known retail stores that lost $80,000 in six months from theft, so it is really out there whether you think of it or not. A bad few days can loose thousands in even a smaller town store. They know most of those alarms are false, but at times cashiers legitimately missed something, and some times they really do catch people. I wish they worked better, but the laws and or store rules are on the thieves side so it is what it is.
Stores also experience positive shrink, where they are missing two cheaper TVs for example, but have two extra more expensive models in stock. Huh, someone walked out with the wrong stuff and there no way to figure out who. Boom, key out two for $1550 and key in two for $2000. Sweet. Happens on cheaper stuff too, every day, but you notice more on the big stuff.
If they actually think I'm stealing then I'll be upset, LP or something would annoy me but not the basic guy just doing his job.
You know why your receipt is checked at places like Best Buy? It's not stealing, it really is double checking the model numbers to ensure you are going out with right tv, laptop or whatever. If you pay for a $899 laptop and you refuse the check and then later go home and realize the idiot handed you a $499 model how smart are you then? You then have no way to prove it, and will be stuck. Upset yes, but stuck. Tvs are even worse, a single letter off on the model and you will have a whole different tv than you thought you were getting. Stock guy grabs from the back or top stock and you may not get the correct item all too easy, I've seen it happen.
Thieves are thieves, and they are good at it, I've known retail stores that lost $80,000 in six months from theft, so it is really out there whether you think of it or not. A bad few days can loose thousands in even a smaller town store. They know most of those alarms are false, but at times cashiers legitimately missed something, and some times they really do catch people. I wish they worked better, but the laws and or store rules are on the thieves side so it is what it is.
Stores also experience positive shrink, where they are missing two cheaper TVs for example, but have two extra more expensive models in stock. Huh, someone walked out with the wrong stuff and there no way to figure out who. Boom, key out two for $1550 and key in two for $2000. Sweet. Happens on cheaper stuff too, every day, but you notice more on the big stuff.
overall I agree. If the alarm goes off, its no big deal because the gizmo failed to disable the alarm. I cant tell you how many times Ive watched the cashier drag the box across the pad on every side, only to be tagged at the door by the alarms because the register deactivator thingie was defective.
But as to the double checking of models on receipts to make sure you are protected, I call bull
. Since Service Merchandise went under, I dont know of any store that doesnt scan the barcodes on the box that the clerk gets for you from the back at the checkout. In many cases to add additional protections the registers require them to also scan the serial number barcode as well to document WHICH specific, individual gizmo they sold you. (so you cant break yours, go to the store and buy another, then attempt to return yours as if you just bought it while keeping the new one) No way in hell in today's market that you are going to accidentally get model X when you pay for model Y. They scan the barcode on the actual box after the clerk gets your product and walks you to the front.
The checks are to prevent customers from pulling a switcheroo by buying a $5 device and substituting a $500 device. (either on their own, or with assistance from employees)
Maybe at some stores, but for big ticket items many times they are rang up by the sku on the price tag, not scanning on the box. This is definitely true at best buy anyway. The tv is in top stock or the back, they ring you up at the register while the tv or refrigerator or whatever is pulled to the front for loading.
Ever seen a side by side refrigerator or front load washer and dryer set drug to the register to be scanned?
Laptops at Best Buy are often rang by sku on the tag if they are locked up as they are waiting on the keys from a manager to get the thing. They'll ring you up while waiting, I've seen that a lot.
Customers trying the switch a roo maybe once a month, employees are screwing up daily lol. Seriously. Also note that they double check the installers of tvs and appliances and such when they are leaving with a customers items the same as they check a customer. That is specifically just a model number check to ensure the right one is headed out. Same thing at Sears, managers have to double check the big ticket items for installers for the exact same reasons.
I've seen TVs brought to the front three times before the stock guy got the right one, it gets pretty funny actually.
Ever seen a side by side refrigerator or front load washer and dryer set drug to the register to be scanned?
Laptops at Best Buy are often rang by sku on the tag if they are locked up as they are waiting on the keys from a manager to get the thing. They'll ring you up while waiting, I've seen that a lot. Customers trying the switch a roo maybe once a month, employees are screwing up daily lol. Seriously. Also note that they double check the installers of tvs and appliances and such when they are leaving with a customers items the same as they check a customer. That is specifically just a model number check to ensure the right one is headed out. Same thing at Sears, managers have to double check the big ticket items for installers for the exact same reasons.
I've seen TVs brought to the front three times before the stock guy got the right one, it gets pretty funny actually.
BehindBlueI's
Grandmaster
- Oct 3, 2012
- 26,608
- 113
A few things.
The anti-theft alarm going off is not probable cause. Probable cause is called "probable" because for a reason. You "probably" committed a crime. In the most simple terms, its more likely you committed a crime than you didn't, and those alarms aren't right 51% of the time.
The store cannot legally detain you based solely on the alarm going off. The store (per IC 35-33-6-2) needs probable cause to detain you.
Law enforcement needs the lower burden of reasonable suspicion to detain (and probable cause to arrest). Again, the name pretty much says it. If a reasonable person would be suspicious that criminal activity could be indicated by the alarm going off may indicate criminal activity, the law enforcement officer can detain you while he investigates it. This could be reviewing security footage, asking for consent to search, etc.
The vast majority of loss prevention personnel know all of this. I've only had issues with one business as an LEO who were detaining people based only on setting off the alarm. They then searched the person and found stolen merchandise. Once I explained that this was criminal confinement, I'd be letting their "shoplifter" go and arresting them, they complained to my supervisor. He backed me, you know, because law, and they stopped calling us. They may have kept on illegally detaining people, but no one ever reported it so maybe they stopped. I do know shortly thereafter the entire loss prevention staff was fired because I was called out for counterfeit money and the whole LP crew was new. I asked why the old ones were let go, and they hinted that "lawsuit" may have been the reason.
The anti-theft alarm going off is not probable cause. Probable cause is called "probable" because for a reason. You "probably" committed a crime. In the most simple terms, its more likely you committed a crime than you didn't, and those alarms aren't right 51% of the time.
The store cannot legally detain you based solely on the alarm going off. The store (per IC 35-33-6-2) needs probable cause to detain you.
Law enforcement needs the lower burden of reasonable suspicion to detain (and probable cause to arrest). Again, the name pretty much says it. If a reasonable person would be suspicious that criminal activity could be indicated by the alarm going off may indicate criminal activity, the law enforcement officer can detain you while he investigates it. This could be reviewing security footage, asking for consent to search, etc.
The vast majority of loss prevention personnel know all of this. I've only had issues with one business as an LEO who were detaining people based only on setting off the alarm. They then searched the person and found stolen merchandise. Once I explained that this was criminal confinement, I'd be letting their "shoplifter" go and arresting them, they complained to my supervisor. He backed me, you know, because law, and they stopped calling us. They may have kept on illegally detaining people, but no one ever reported it so maybe they stopped. I do know shortly thereafter the entire loss prevention staff was fired because I was called out for counterfeit money and the whole LP crew was new. I asked why the old ones were let go, and they hinted that "lawsuit" may have been the reason.
hornadylnl
Shooter
- Nov 19, 2008
- 21,505
- 63
I knew a guy who worked loss prevention. He told me a good crew will actually make a store money because they're allowed to go after 3 times the amount of the item in court.
Did you not read anything I said? I clearly stated that a property owner may ask you to leave at any time for any reason. That is not a violation of your rights. You should follow the rules of the property owner, I don't dispute that. As you said yourself though violating those rules will not result in a criminal offense (unless breaking that rule is also a violation of some law, but in that case you would be in trouble on public property for doing it as well). A property owner has the right to ask (rather require) you to leave, you don't have a right to be there unless allowed in the first place so you are not losing any right you had prior. Take the issue of "no gun" signs in Indiana. If you see that clearly posted on the door while you enter but you still proceed with a gun you have not lost your right to carry, nor will you face any criminal issues unless you refuse to leave if asked.
I now quote myself from post #35 in this thread:
Last edited:
Excellent post. You're "51%" of the time wrong though kind of understates it though don't you think? They are false alarms 97% of the time which really means there is no probable cause.
I once got home to find a security tag somehow still on a pair of pants I bought. To be honest I actually enjoyed the 30 minutes or so it took for me to figure out how to get the thing off without damaging the pants. I succeeded.
KittySlayer
Grandmaster
These aren't the droids your looking for
This is the approach I have always followed and have never had an incident or second thought. Between store policy and lack of any gumption most employees won't pursue anyone. The only time I would even consider stopping to chat about my recent transaction would be with an officer wearing a real badge.
Sometimes my wife might hesitate leaving the store but she knows I am going straight to the car and the potential of having to walk home makes her quickly change her mind about stopping for an inanimate object.
You are absolutly right about that Merchant Agreement not allowing them to require ID. Whater I comply with their request depends on how ornery of mood I am in compared to how quickly I want to get out of the place. I hate shopping and try to minimize my time in the store. Thing is I almost always use cash so the instances of even being exposed to request for ID with my credit card are nominal.
Now I am on a mission. This sounds like lots of fun. The sad thing is not being there to watch it go off each time.
Honest mistake? More often I would say it is poor training, lazy/inept clerks, poorly designed/maintained equipment. How many times do those things go off when a theft has not occurred? I would imagine they would have a hard time arguing probably cause based on the number of false positives.
This is the approach I have always followed and have never had an incident or second thought. Between store policy and lack of any gumption most employees won't pursue anyone. The only time I would even consider stopping to chat about my recent transaction would be with an officer wearing a real badge.
Sometimes my wife might hesitate leaving the store but she knows I am going straight to the car and the potential of having to walk home makes her quickly change her mind about stopping for an inanimate object.
You are absolutly right about that Merchant Agreement not allowing them to require ID. Whater I comply with their request depends on how ornery of mood I am in compared to how quickly I want to get out of the place. I hate shopping and try to minimize my time in the store. Thing is I almost always use cash so the instances of even being exposed to request for ID with my credit card are nominal.
Now I am on a mission. This sounds like lots of fun. The sad thing is not being there to watch it go off each time.
Honest mistake? More often I would say it is poor training, lazy/inept clerks, poorly designed/maintained equipment. How many times do those things go off when a theft has not occurred? I would imagine they would have a hard time arguing probably cause based on the number of false positives.
Site Supporter
Staff online
-
KellyinAvonBlue-ID Mafia Consigliere -
Cameramonkeywww.thechosen.tv -
d.kaufmanStill Here -
GodFearinGunTotinSuper Moderator
Members online
- snorko
- littletommy
- boogieman
- TheGrumpyGuy
- 42253
- chezuki
- JettaKnight
- rkwhyte2
- db308
- HKFaninCarmel
- drillsgt
- BluePig
- Principal Skinr
- Scott58
- Hawkeye7br
- KellyinAvon
- PTinbound
- cbhausen
- gcoop
- 92FSTech
- blueskies
- joe138
- XDragon117X
- sadclownwp
- Born2vette
- flint stonez
- TheTank
- model1994
- Indyhd
- Fire Lord
- therealsethh27
- BoilerWes
- patience0830
- ramick
- brettholycross
- Bennettjh
- macolesby
- Cameramonkey
- Bllentz94
- joncon
- Chippp1961
- jwamplerusa
- d.kaufman
- jedi
- GodFearinGunTotin
- indyblue
- mmpsteve
- stale_ranch
- cakndsn
- hunt4fun