Refusing to Stop for Anti-Theft Alarm

[TheSpark]

As we all know we have the 4th amendment protecting us from illegal search and seizures. We also have protection from illegal detainment. So here is my questions:

It has happened to all of us. We've been in Wal-mart, or some other retail establishment, paid for all our items (which now belong to us), walked through the exit doors only to hear an alarm go off and an old person coming at you to check your bags and receipt. Typically customers comply, let the employee go through their stuff and check their receipt. What about the ones who refuse though? I do not see anything they could really do to you. If they called the police I don't think they could even search -YOUR- stuff. Anyone know what the law is on this? Is anyone who has ever refused here willing to share their story of what happened next (if anything at all)?

I guess the main thing here is if the alarm going off (which is probably 99% always a false alarm in regards to theft occurring or not) is enough for reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed.

Personally I find these situations embarrassing. Everyone looks at you thinking you are possibly a theif. Then on top of that if you comply you get your personal space and property violated by a stranger.

 

[Double T]

Typically, I know exactly what set it off. no big deal bc the idiot didn't demagnetize a bar in one of my goodies.

 

[pjcalla]

I just keep walking, I know I'm not a thief. They don't ever do anything about it. The most anyone has ever done is say "Sir!" about three times. I just keep walking, pretending I don't hear them. They have never chased me out of the store.

 

[chezuki]

I never stop and I've never been pursued. I know I didn't steal anything.

I'd like to see what happens if someone refused consent at Best Buy or Fry's where they make a habit of checking most if not all receipts, but I haven't been in a contrary enough mood to try it myself.

 

[TheSpark]

Typically, I know exactly what set it off. no big deal bc the idiot didn't demagnetize a bar in one of my goodies.

Maybe not, but that is not your problem imo. You would be giving up your rights if you complied.

 

[Brandon]

Right after I started my first job, they had put in alarms. We were given the task to put the stickers on things one night when we were slow. We quickly finished and got bored. We ended up sticking tags on some of the girl's purses and on other's coats so they would not see them.

Aside from that, really depends in my mood if I will stop and wait. If I am in a hurry, that is their problem.

 

[pirate]

It happened to me 3 times in a week at a local Meijer. The first two I stopped. They checked the receipt as slowly as it seemed possible, then 5 minutes later I was on my way. The 3rd time I went through was a day later because we had forgotten some chicken broth. The alarm went off again. They said "excuse me sir, I need to see your receipt." I smiled and said, not this time. Then kept on walking out the door. The farther I walked the louder they told me to STOP! A cart boy tried to get me to show him the receipt at my car. I smiled and said no again. Then got in my car and left. I still shop at that store at least a couple times a month. To this day, I always have some guy in plain clothes with a walkie talkie follow me around if its after 5pm. Some days I ask him if he has caught any good shoplifters lately, he just walks the other direction. andddd thats my alarm story.

 

[TheSpark]

Nice to hear everyone's take on if they stop or not. What I am really wondering though is if there is anything the store -could- do, or the cops if called, if you refused.

Also, I know everyone here is really sensitive to any violation of their 2nd amendment or ever giving it up temporarily (as am I). I find it odd so far that most have replied that they consent, at least most of the time, which would be waiving your 4th amendment right imo.

 

[Double T]

Maybe not, but that is not your problem imo. You would be giving up your rights if you complied.

Since when does the 4th amendment apply to a citizen searching another citizen's property? I thought it was only involving criminal proceedings. Besides, there's probable cause considering the anti-theft alarm went off. So if you fight it and they call the police, you can refuse all you want, but the probable cause is there.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I walk on through, and I do the same for anywhere that requests to check the receipt on the way out the door.

Best Buy does this occasionally. Just say "No thank you" and keep walking.

Be careful with places that you sign an agreement to shop at, like Sam's Club. They can check your receipt, as you agreed to allow them.

 

[Kurr]

I can understand if the alarm goes off. What gets me is when they ask before you even get to the alarm part.My understanding is that it is not like costco where you sign a contract to shop there, and "may" be under obligation to allow. You have no agreements with the store like wal-mart. They have every right to ask, you have every right to decline. Now if they grab you or try to forcibly detain you, that would make an interesting case for self defence.

 

[TheSpark]

Since when does the 4th amendment apply to a citizen searching another citizen's property? I thought it was only involving criminal proceedings. Besides, there's probable cause considering the anti-theft alarm went off. So if you fight it and they call the police, you can refuse all you want, but the probable cause is there.

True, it does not really apply to to another citizen. But I'm just using that because if you refused and they got the police involved then it would apply. I do not agree with your statement on probably cause though. Not saying you are wrong, but I would like to see something supporting it.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

How come you're throwing the word "rights" around - when this is a private property and private business entity issue?

-J-

 

[TheSpark]

How come you're throwing the word "rights" around - when this is a private property and private business entity issue?

-J-

You still have rights, obviously. Especially if the police are called. Just because you are on anothers property does not give them the right to detain you or nullify any of your rights.

 

[Mr. Habib]

I used to have one of those RFID things that didn't get deactivated. I would try to go through the detectors on my way in, and set off the alarm, just as someone else was going through to leave. It's even more fun to leave and set one off without having made a purchase. The look on their face when you tell them that you don't have a receipt and keep on walking is priceless. Hiding one under a cart is fun, too.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Since when does the 4th amendment apply to a citizen searching another citizen's property? I thought it was only involving criminal proceedings. Besides, there's probable cause considering the anti-theft alarm went off. So if you fight it and they call the police, you can refuse all you want, but the probable cause is there.

This...

If an officer just happens to be at the entrance/exit, and person sets off the alarm, and an employee attempts to have that person stop. If that person refuses, then the officer had the law in his side if he places himself in that situation. If there's a refusal after that, odds are you will be cuffed and sat on the curb until everything is figured out. If not theft has occurred, the person will be uncuffed, brushed off, and sent on their way.

...and then we'll talk about "that idiot" the next day in roll call.

 

[TheSpark]

I used to have one of those RFID things that didn't get deactivated. I would try to go through the detectors on my way in, and set off the alarm, just as someone else was going through to leave. It's even more fun to leave and set one off without having made a purchase. The look on their face when you tell them that you don't have a receipt and keep on walking is priceless. Hiding one under a cart is fun, too.

Haha, I bet you can buy those things on the internet too if you really wanted to have fun.

I have been doing a little digging on the laws surrounding this. Apparently, 5 states have it written into their law that the activation of these does constitute probable cause. The constitutionality of that I question. To be clear, because people have already questions me on this, that would apply to police searching you. If the store tries to detain you (legally or not) I know you can refuse any search until police gets there. Violating that request would allow you to pursue civil and/or criminal charges against them. It appears for almost all other states that these devices do not constitute probable cause. Instead, they must have someone who actually saw the theft occurring. You may still be forcefully searched by police, and arrested if you did in fact steal, but most likely the courts would throw it out on a 4th amendment violation. (IANAL,just what I've got from google so far)

Oh, and all those states require merchants to have signs clearly posted saying they use the devices in order for that probable cause to apply. Otherwise it does not.

 

[Birds Away]

Way to stand your ground vs. an inanimate object.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

I've set off those alarms at the entrance multiple times at local stores most recently being at Wal-Mart. The greeter waved me through. If they ever check it's just a quick glance at the receipt and then "ok, here you go. Have a nice day." There's no reason to stop. They don't thoroughly check your merchandise. It's a visual deterrent for small time thieves. That's all.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Haha, I bet you can buy those things on the internet too if you really wanted to have fun.

I have been doing a little digging on the laws surrounding this. Apparently, 5 states have it written into their law that the activation of these does constitute probable cause. The constitutionality of that I question. To be clear, because people have already questions me on this, that would apply to police searching you. If the store tries to detain you (legally or not) I know you can refuse any search until police gets there. Violating that request would allow you to pursue civil and/or criminal charges against them. It appears for almost all other states that these devices do not constitute probable cause. Instead, they must have someone who actually saw the theft occurring. You may still be forcefully searched by police, and arrested if you did in fact steal, but most likely the courts would throw it out on a 4th amendment violation. (IANAL,just what I've got from google so far)

Oh, and all those states require merchants to have signs clearly posted saying they use the devices in order for that probable cause to apply. Otherwise it does not.

A clerk isn't going to search your person, typically. They are going to take your bag and wave it through the sensors, and if it's set off, they'll probably apologize and ask if they can demag the item. If the bag doesn't go off they will probably ask you if you beeped when came in, advise that it was probably a purse or wallet, and typically let you go.