Red Dot Tactical Training in Rushville

[Cure4Life]

Gees guys, i didnt know we were back in English class! As a web designer myself, i can guarantee that probably over 75% of content you see is copied from someone else... maybe not word for word, but just slightly enough so that it's not obvious. Give the guy a break, he's learning. I suppose you all came out of the womb knowing all this stuff?? It's not like he cheated on his finals, or published a book by someone else in his name. It's course descriptions! Gees. I suppose if Glock has the same features as a Sig, we should get on Glocks site and complain that they copied Sig's features and call them plagarists and put down their firearms on just that basis alone??

On a personal note, i know Swatdude. I've taken his classes. My wife's taken his clases. My son has taken his classes. Friends of mine have taken his classes. He knows his stuff. He's ex-swat, current LEO. I learned a tremendous amount of information that could possible save my life, or someone elses life. Isnt that what's important here instead of who wrote what first?

I'd recommend him to anyone looking for this type of training and doesnt want to feel intimidated or "out-of-place". I suggest before you go off half cocked trying to put him down, take his class... if it wasnt up to par, ask for a refund AND THEN SMEAR HIM! instead of trying to put hm down for his lack of webdesign experience or marketing skills. You all sound like politicians sparring for a vote. Grow up!

 

[latham17]

I have taken classes at Red Dot Tactical and feel good about the money i spent with them. They are excellent instructors who work with you on a personal level that I had not seen before! Cure4life, I agree sometimes the elitism on this website is disgusting! i recommend indypreppers.org. ProLiberate, you need to read your signature line quote again (kinda makes you a hypocrite). Name calling is what we did in the 4th grade, thanks for serving our country but the only D-bag on this thread is YOU!

 

[esrice]

I've taken his classes. My wife's taken his clases. My son has taken his classes. Friends of mine have taken his classes.

Would you be able to put together a detailed AAR from one of the courses you took? I'd be interested to get a better idea of what RDT offers.

I agree sometimes the elitism on this website is disgusting!

You've heard of a couple criticisms by folks who have (admittedly) only read their website and do not have any direct experience. That's hardly enough to quantify an entire website as "elitist".

the only D-bag on this thread is YOU!

As a Moderator I will need to remind you that direct name-calling is not allowed. Please refrain from posting insults directed toward another member.


Let's all remember that first impressions are important. Initially the only impression we were offered by RDT was a website and some not-so-friendly reaction to criticism. I'd like to see some more positive impressions if you guys who have trained with them could continue to offer them. AARs and pictures are helpful ways to get that information across when it comes to forums and electronic media.

 

[latham17]

esrice, just kinda curious but where were you when proliberate called swatdude a "d-bag"? thanks for the reminder though! just my opinion but that is one example of why i said this website has an elitist mentality. this isn't the first time i have noticed stuff like this...i'm just pointing out the obvious. thanks again for the public reprimand!

 

[Cure4Life]

Sounds more like "guilty untill proven innocent". Everyone's started the RDT bash-fest based on website content without ever knowing the people there, or observing a single class, but now he has to prove none of the insinuations are correct to somehow restore his good standing here? bleh

 

[esrice]

esrice, just kinda curious but where were you when proliberate called swatdude a "d-bag"?

SWATDUDE hasn't posted in this thread, so I'm not sure how ProLibertate could've insulted him directly.

just my opinion but that is one example of why i said this website has an elitist mentality. this isn't the first time i have noticed stuff like this...i'm just pointing out the obvious.

Since when is common courtesy an "elitist mentality"? We don't tolerate the direct insults of other members here. The rule applies to you and rest of INGOs 18k+ members. If someone had called you a "d-bag" they would've been warned as well.

thanks again for the public reprimand!

This is how rules are enforced here. We got away from the "private infractions" because no one knew who was getting in trouble, and people complained that "it was only them" who was getting infractions.

So now we issue a public in-thread warning for all to see and take notice. If anyone fails to heed the warning, a temporary 48-hour ban is then instituted for that member. That's the way it works for every violation, not just here.

This is the Tactics and Training forum and so far I haven't read a specific reason why I should consider RDT for my training needs. What sets them apart from the rest? What do they teach? Why is it good training?

 

[esrice]

Sounds more like "guilty untill proven innocent". Everyone's started the RDT bash-fest based on website content without ever knowing the people there, or observing a single class, but now he has to prove none of the insinuations are correct to somehow restore his good standing here? bleh

1. Most people on here don't personally know the owner or trainers at RDT.
2. Most people have never taken or observed a course from RDT.
3. Everyone here owns a computer and has access to their website.

What else would we base our initial impressions on?

This is the internet. People are fickle. We have to base our initial judgements on website content and the written responses from the owner. That's all we've got to work with. If something is suspect, then folks are less likely to investigate further. Maybe if we had more to go on (like a place to read AARs, see pictures, or learn more about the outfit) we'd be more likely to take RDT's offerings seriously.

Everyone wants to feel good about their training choices, so I understand if some of the statements here were personally offensive to you. But please realize that its nothing personal-- people are just curious (and that's a good thing ).

 

[rhino]

I'll try again to make my position clear:

The problem that I had (and I speak for no one else) was with an obvious example of plagiarism with respect to the course descriptions that appeared originally on the web site. They were clearly copied from another well-known training business' web site/literature. Plagiarism is a serious offense regardless of whether or not someone is offering an otherwise good or bad product.

Apparently the descriptions have been edited, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, the initial problem sets the tone, as did the defensive attitude that was displayed in the previous topic as a result (which has clearly been adopted subsequently by others).

 

[Shay]

Don't steal. It's pretty simple.

 

[Pamcake]

I first met Russel (swatdude) at the Defensive Edge SLR15 Rifles AR15/M16 Armorer Course (Morristown, IN) in the spring of 2010: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...15_m_16_m_4_armoring_course_shelby_co_in.html
I enjoyed it, but having no prior background in the subject, felt as if perhaps the class was geared toward students with more experience. (LOL, it made me want to build one myself, and I subsequently did!) Russell kindly assisted me numerous times in the course, even though he was also there as student, not instructor. I did not now anything about Red Dot then; not sure when it got started but it is obvious that RDT is a new venture.

Red Dot Tactical appears to suffer from not having prior experience in marketing. Everyone has to get their start somewhere, somehow... Oh the growing pains!

I attended the Red Dot Tactical "Ladies Only Pistol Course" this fall.
COURSE: * LPC-006 * LADIES ONLY PISTOL COURSE Sorry, I don't have photos, as that was not the reason I was there LOL

We each recieved individually-tailored, experience-level-appropriate teaching; one of the students was a complete novice.
A supportive, non-judgemental environment is crucial to many ladies that are beginning to shoot, and that is provided. Russell and Francois are good at one-on-one attention and coaching. Would have liked to have shot more rounds, though. The day passed too quickly.

If one would like a high-strung or Ermey-like drill sergeant as an instructor, don't attend this course, at least with Russell & Francois. I have no information about the other instructors at Red Dot.

 

[templar223]

I'm supposed to teach at an event next May where Russell, one of the primary people from Red Dot, will also be teaching. I'll have an opportunity to see him doing his thing first-hand at that time.

I will say that he seems like a good guy from exchanging a half-dozen messages working together with me in a very cooperative fashion in planning for this event and assigning areas of responsibility in the firearms training we'll be offering. (I'm going to do pistols. He's going to cover carbine rifles and shotguns.)

He says they formed Red Dot about a year ago and it's been slow getting started for them. I know the feeling from personal experience. When I started teaching about fifteen years ago with a couple friends, we struggled to fill classes. Today, through reputation, word of mouth and advertising in gun rights publications, we have lots of students and have refined our product dramatically over the years.

I think most instructors will agree with me (and I was reminded of this just last weekend by Frank Sharpe of Fortress): you'll learn about 75-80% of what you need to know in any decent quality class for a given subject/platform when it comes to guns. Gaining that last 20+% is the tough part and you will probably never get all of it even if you go to a half-dozen different schools. You will learn something from every class though and be able to throw it in the toolbox.

I just found the other thread about RDT and saw their rather clumsy plagiarizing of EAG's website. Ooops. Bad call on their part to do that. To his credit, the text, as far as I can tell, has been "fixed", although that pic from an EAG class (and I'm a Boone-county EAG alumni myself) is still there.

I will say, for the money though, it would seem their training is a very good value if it's even average in quality. I've taken carbine rifle classes from top tier instructors that I wasn't all that in awe of and I spent a whole lot more than $150 for a two-day class.

And while not everyone can teach a class as good as a Costa/Haley team, even a bad class beats the best video when it comes to firearm training.

John B.
GSL Defense Training.

 

[schhrdkncks]

I signed up for the class and talked to Russel on the phone for about twenty minutes. He seemed like a nice guy and very down to earth. Ill let you guys know how it goes. I figured for $75 why not. The worst thing that can happen is Ill meet other gun guys and spend the day shooting.

 

[shooter521]

I signed up for the class and talked to Russel on the phone for about twenty minutes. He seemed like a nice guy and very down to earth. Ill let you guys know how it goes. I figured for $75 why not. The worst thing that can happen is Ill meet other gun guys and spend the day shooting.

I look forward to reading your AAR.

 

[ProLibertate]

Sounds more like "guilty untill proven innocent". Everyone's started the RDT bash-fest based on website content without ever knowing the people there, or observing a single class, but now he has to prove none of the insinuations are correct to somehow restore his good standing here? bleh

The general sense of mistrust toward RDT is a direct result of their own actions.
Plain and simple: They took copyrighted text, copied & pasted, and passed it off as though it were their own original thoughts. That is not only immoral, it is illegal.
They used photos in their gallery of competitors' training sessions, again leading the reader to believe through implication that this is their own product.
They also make seemingly bizarre claims which are irrelevant to firearms training such as "martial arts combatives" and "Neanderthal toughness".
In a previous thread, SWATDUDE mentions that one of the instructors working for him was "Canadian Special Forces when he was younger". This is suspect to me because Canada didn't have special forces until 2006 when the Canadian Special Operations Regiment was formed...so...exactly who was he with?
Their site is full of spelling and grammatical errors which in and of itself may not seem like a big deal, except it shows two things:
Lack of attention to detail (in a detail oriented industry), and lack of pride in one's work.
For those reasons, as well as many other considerations, I arrived at the decision not to give this company my money.

My reasons are my own. Your mileage may vary.


For those of you interested, here is a link to Title 17 Chapter 5 of the United States Code on Copyright Law. Pay extra special attention to §506 "Criminal Offenses".
U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright Law: Chapter 5

Whenever possible, I try to avoid doing business with criminals.

 

[lahar]

I'm a new member to the forum(signed up last week at some point) for this reason(to find out good palces to get instruction from) like "schhrdkncks" said for the money it was worth trying it...

to the point AAR: This class was worth way more then what RDT charges, tons of good information, and tons of great drills, let me tell you, I've been to many other firearms training schools and if you want more info in a one day class....good luck finding it, plenty of great schools out there but you'll spend multiple days if not a full week, at about 10 to 20 times the price.
Russ is a really down to earth guy with great "usefull" experience,
If your looking for some "seal team six" training...JOIN THE SEALS...and take a trip to Afghanistan .
If your looking for a realistic training for what you may actually use in your life time....TAKE A CLASS WITH RDT.

That's it

 

[templar223]

Welcome Mr. Lahar and thank you for the info about your experience.

 

[Steve MI]

mind sharing whom else you have trained with as a base level for others to compare

 

[figley]

Training Comparison

I attended the RDT carbine class, and will give an unbiased opinion, using RDT's listed course objectives as a rough guideline.

To give some perspective, others whom I've paid for firearms instruction:

Guy Minnis - Hard Target Firearms Training, Evansville, IN (tac. carbine, tac. shotgun)
Matt Pierce - PD Training, New Castle, IN (tac. carbine)
Henk Iverson - Strike Tactical, @ Sand Burr Gun Ranch (CCW handgun)

The day began with a brief discussion of slings and sights. Being this was a level II class, everyone had pretty well made his own decision of what kind, and how much he wanted to strap to his rifle and person.

There was some talk of the combat triad, and the OODA loop, but no significant context given to either. The "Willingness to Live", was mentioned, but again, no real emphasis was put on the need, in a gunfight, to, "PREVAIL at all costs".

On the range, Russ broke out a whole bunch of dummy rounds, and instructed the students to mix them in with their ammo, in order to deal with malfunctions all day. That was such a PITA, but an awesomely beneficial training tool. By the afternoon, most of us had mags laced with malfunctions, that we had long forgotten about. I can't say enough about how valuable a tool that is, in any training scenario.

Mounting the rifle was given short shrift, as the standard seemed to be that of an M1, or highpower shooter. I would have liked to have seen more instruction given on how, when, and why, to transition, from strong, to support shoulder. (Russ's term, I see its appropriateness)

Speed reloads. I don't recall if it was discussed, but I didn't see much of it practiced, or demanded. The accepted standard was to stay on the line of fire, remove, and maybe drop the empty, and select a full.

Another valuable experience was actual testing of different firearms vs. a car, a la "The Box O' Truth". I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't been there. A .45ACP round ball, or .223, will blow clear through a sedan, a .380 Hornady Critical Defense went through one door, and busted the window on the other side, a .50 mzldr went clear through the trunk, but a .308 softip wouldn't penetrate door-to-door.

At the end of the day, an obstacle course was set up, that consisted of shooting out of a car, shooting into a car, and a barrier-filled obstacle course, like you might find in USPSA. There were also barrels of #&&@& set on fire! That was pretty cool.

If a person is looking to get some trigger time, and burn some ammo, RDT is an entertaining class. However, if a shooter is looking for solid instruction that maximizes his or her training dollar, there are much better choices.

For the best inexpensive instruction, near Indianapolis, that will set a good foundation for home defense, or continued training, I would recommend Matt Pierce, in New Castle. Matt learns from top notch trainers, like Clint Smith, then relays that information to fellow INGO'ers for what amounts to little more than gas money and range fees.

If you want instruction that will give you the best chance of saving your hide in any gunfight, hook up with one of the South Effricans, or one of the other trainers Sand Burr, or Sheriff Ken hosts. This training will cost significantly more, but would be worth twice the price. FWIW, I've learned quite a bit for free, just talking to Henk, when he used to work the table for M&A Parts, at the 1500.

 

[lahar]

my training experience.

5 day carbine class
Alpha omega Durant OK (john "something") commited suicide NOV 2009 "was a front sight certified instructor


multiple classes total of,
62 hrs carbine
48 pistol
16 shotgun
Gardian firearms academy Green castle,IN (Jerrod Baugh) certified Gunsite instructor, LEO and LEO rifle, pistol and shotgun instructor

2 day class
carbine+ pistol
private instruction with a private military contractor for KBR with many trips to Afghanitan

and now
carbine class
8hrs
with RDT

and many more planned for 2012, from gunsite to tactical response AND RDT

 

[Irishsniper]

I was in that rifle class with lahar and figley. I loved it! Now that being said it was my first official training class I attended so I have nothing to compare it to. I learned a lot and had a great time. I feel it was definitely worth the $ I paid. I have signed up to take RDT pistol class on the 29th. Well there is my two cents.