Reasonable Force / Drawing and not firing / Warning Shot

[mainjet]

The "warning shot" works great in Westerns but really should not be uttered in real life. You would not take a swing at a guy but intentionally swing over his head to warn him that you are ready to hit him, would you?

 

[cexshun]

The "warning shot" works great in Westerns but really should not be uttered in real life. You would not take a swing at a guy but intentionally swing over his head to warn him that you are ready to hit him, would you?

How about a warning flashbang?

 

[Floater]

I've actually been in one of the situations you've given as an example. It was a Saturday night (technically Sunday morning) at 2 am. I'm a night owl so I was up anyway. All of a sudden I hear someone trying to come in my front door. Now, it doesn't sound like they're trying to force it open, more like trying to jiggle the handle and maybe using a key that won't work in my lock. Why trying to unlock MY door with THEIR key is beyond me, or it was at the moment, things became a little clearer later on, but I'll get to that.

So, grab my handgun and go to the door and in a particularly nasty tone of voice ask who's at my door. A male voice on the other side says "It's me." To which I, in a not so calm manner, inquire "me who?" Admittedly with some colorful words between the 'me' and the 'who'. To which I get no response. The handle jiggling has also stopped. Soon after, I hear similar noises at my back door.

I have a sliding glass door upstairs that opens to a deck that overlooks my back door. There is a gate at the top of the stairs leading up to the deck, which few people seem to be able to figure out how to work. I look out my sliding door and see nobody. Figuring I'm in a somewhat secure elevated position, I crack open the sliding door and peek my head out to where I can get a better view of the back door. There I see a guy in his mid twenties or so trying to gain entrance. Again, not really trying to force his way in. I again inquire as to what in the hell this guy thinks he's doing. (Mind you, the whole time the wife was on the phone with 911.) He tries to answer me and it becomes incredibly obvious that this guy is as drunk as a monkey.

A week or so earlier a couple of mid twenty something guys moved into the place next door. We hadn't really met yet, but he kinda looked like one of the guys who moved in over there...maybe.

Drunk guy starts going on about how he lives here and he wants to know what I'm doing in his house. So, I tell him he's at the wrong house and he needs to get outta here and go home, right next door. He gets very argumentative and refuses to leave. He walks from my back door to the stairs leading up to my deck. Being loud and mean, he starts to walk up the stairs. I've still got the sliding door open about a foot. As he starts up the stairs, I take aim. He sees the gun and backs down the stairs telling me not to shoot. I told him to stand right there and not to move, but he's drunk and apparently not that bright. He walks away, around the house, and back to my front door.

The whole process starts over again. He can't get in the front door, so he walks around to the back again. He can't get in the back door, so he walks around to the front door again. He went from front to back and from back to front about half a dozen times.

FINALLY, Chesterton's finest arrive and I mean they arrive in force -- 3 cars in front of the house, 4 cars in the alley behind the house, a couple cars on each side street on either side of our block, red and blue lights and spot lights lighting up the neighborhood.

To make a long story somewhat shorter, they put him on the ground (which was fun to watch ) and cuff him. They determine that he's drunk (no, really? ) and that he does in fact live next door.

They ask if I want to press charges, which I didn't. He was just a drunk sob at the wrong house. I did inform the officers that he's lucky he didn't manage to force his way in because I was armed and was ready to defend myself and my family if needed. "I don't blame you." was the exact response from the officer I was talking to. Gotta love that.

So, drawing and pointing my weapon did somewhat prevent him from trying to get in without having to fire. It was my full intent to shoot if he continued to come at me, but thank God I didn't have to. I wasn't given a lecture. I wasn't brought up on or even threatened with brandishing charges. They let him go home and let me get back to playing video games.

I don't think I'd ever point my gun at someone as a means of defense without the full intent to shoot though. It just happened that the mere presentation of the gun stopped him in his tracks, before he started making tracks again towards my front door.

A couple of months later he was locked inside his house holding off the Chesterton SWAT Team, or whatever they call themselves, with a shotgun. Several hours later it was resolved peacefully and he surrendered. Never seen him again.

 

[mainjet]

How about a warning flashbang?

Yes, I did not think about a flashbang. That is perfectly acceptable as a deterant.

 

[cexshun]

Yes, I did not think about a flashbang. That is perfectly acceptable as a deterant.

It may be for those of us with a type 54 BATFE license and a federally approved explosives magazine on the premises.

 

[MikeDVB]

You asked for others to point out your errors .... This does not appear to be "quoting bits of law". This appears to be quoting text from a non Indiana-Code source. I did not find that exact phrase anywhere under IC 35-41-3. I would stick to the actual code when trying to determine what the code says.

Indeed, but it is an interpretation of the law - just as everybody here is trying to express their own understanding and interpretation of the law.

Like most things posted on this site pertaining to the law, there really is no clear cut answer. Everybody on here is doing their best to give you educated opinions and point you in the direction to find some info, but like they say, situations like your scenario are tense, uncertain, and rapidy evolving.

Indeed, I'm not faulting anybody for trying.

I always encourage people that I care about to take measures to protect themselves and their families. Of course, call the police, but if an officer is less than 10-15 minutes from your house you are real lucky..in rural areas a lot further. The whole thing will likely be over by then. Police usually arrive in time to put crime scene tape around the victim.

Generally here in Indianapolis there are officers nearby. The one or two times I've had to contact them for issues over the last few years they tend to show up extremely quickly. This is great, but not really relevant as far as the interpretation of the law itself.

Now, it certainly is not worth killing someone over some property out of a garage.

And this is one of the reasons I am asking. If the person is threatening my life or limb with serious injury or death I will use deadly force if needed. What I am asking about is protecting property (or others, if possible) with non-lethal (read: reasonable) force.

if a reasonable person in your same situation would believe that the amount of force you used was needed then you could be justified; reasonable force can include deadly force. I don't consider protecting yourself, your family and your house "playing police." Police take reports, men protect their families.

Indeed, but as an example - let's take a gun out of the situation temporarily. Say somebody is breaking in to my garage and I can see that they are unarmed (know it for sure, say they're just wearing tighty whities) - if I were able I would, after contacting police, attempt to detain them.

Now without a gun being involved, the gun laws do not apply - but would that be assault & battery for warning them and then taking action to detain them? I would presume not.

Now take the same situation - but this time the guy is 6'4" and 280 pounds of muscle... If I were to wish to detain this individual I would certainly feel better doing it from a distance with a gun.

Is the better option simply to leave them alone until the police arrive? Probably - but it's not what I'm asking about just as I'm not asking about what kind of ice cream you like so let's try to stay on-point if possible.

Mike... a good place to start for general answers for both new and experienced gun owners is to find and read a copy of this book...

The Law of Self-Defense: A Guide for the Armed Citizen by Andrew F. Branca (Apr 1, 1998)

I'm looking into books to read, and will add that to the list.

does anyone know what happened to the White county case a few years ago?
A guy shot & killed someone breaking into his barn , from a distance..
made news for a few days but then I did not see any story on if he was charged..
this would be the kind of case the OP thought of...

Not exactly - I am talking about less than deadly force, but more than no force (i.e. reasonable force). I.e. detaining somebody or stopping their illegal activities using a gun without firing a shot. Again, I realize it's rarely (if ever) a good idea so I am not trying to say it's what I would or should do - but just trying to discuss it as the law sees it.

IC 35-41-3-2My take as a non-lawyer is that it's pretty clear. You can use reasonable force to stop the break in, but you cannot use deadly force unless you have a reasonable belief that you or someone else is in danger of serious injury or death.

So I can use reasonable force - what does that mean? It's in the gun law so I would assume that reasonable force is relating to using firearms up to and including deadly force. But if you take deadly force off the table (i.e. you are not justified in using deadly force), what does reasonable force include?

Taking it a bit further, it's my understanding you can use reasonable force to prevent the escape of a criminal. For the sake of that argument - say they broke in to your garage, you called the police, and they're about to leave long before the police arrive. It's not so much about protecting/keeping what they're taking as much as making sure the criminal is arrested/charged with their crime (in my mind). Here is a part of the very law you cited which inspires my line of questioning on this:

A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape (when) a felony has been committed; and there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.

What is "reasonable force" to prevent their escape, when you know they committed a felony (theft in Indiana is a felony).

"Reasonable" depends on the context, and the scope of the harm threatened.

I would agree - if they're 20 yards from you with a knife and standing still, pulling your gun and shooting them dead likely isn't reasonable or justified. Some will argue the fear of death or serious injury - but at 20 yards with only a knife I would have a hard time justifying a deadly shooting.

Reasonable force, in my mind, would involve pulling the gun and being prepared to fire should they charge/advance you - but not shooting until you have a reasonable fear of death or serious injury. I personally would not want to wait until they were a few feet from me to pull a weapon, I'd rather be prepared to fire should I need.

Don't take this too far though, I'm not talking about walking around with your gun drawn in a bad part of town just because something might happen. I'm asking about when you have a reasonable expectation that you may need to defend yourself using deadly force in the very immediate future (i.e. seconds).

As well as the fact that a jury might be deciding whether a shooter's action was "reasonable" or not.

Indeed - and this, I think, is part of the issue with me. The officer can always arrest you and charge you with anything they feel you've done illegally (i.e. pulling a weapon without justification) but that isn't to say you would be convicted. Do I want to go through unnecessary criminal proceedings? No - but that isn't to say I don't want to understand the law.

Again, if human life is not in danger, you are better off assuming that deadly force is not reasonable.

Indeed, but is simply pulling a weapon considered "deadly force"? If somebody is at 20 yards with a knife and starts charging you and you pull a gun but do not shoot, as they have an opportunity to stop their advance before they get to you and after seeing the gun - would that be deadly force, reasonable force?

The mantra is not to pull unless you plan to shoot, and not to shoot unless you plan to kill... But let's say in that split second after pulling your weapon and before you squeeze the trigger the BG halts in their actions, puts their hands up, and says "don't shoot". Would you then have broken the law by pulling your weapon and not firing - but be fine if you did pull the trigger?

This seems a tad bass ackwards to me. You should be able to exercise discretion when it comes to using a gun as apposed all-or-nothing if you feel you can de-escalate the situation.

If the attack is terminated, say the perpetrator runs, deadly force to detain him would not be reasonable. Unless he's moving to cover and is armed, or he is moving away from you but threatening other persons.

Indeed, but if they're running and you pull your weapon and order them to stop. They could ignore you and keep running (at which point, shooting is not an option) or they could comply and stop. Say they do comply and stop and the police arrive - did you break the law?

They can (and likely will) arrest you either way, but I still want to know how the law would actually be applied.

It pays to know the black-letter law of the jurisdiction. Don't rely on the practice in other states.

Indeed, when not in Ohio - I am not going to worry about how Ohio would handle the situation (or any other state).

You can always ask Guy or Kirk, who pop up here frequently, for their take.

Perhaps they'll see the thread and put in their thoughts.

I have ran the situation through my head a thousand times on what I would have done if I had been home. I definitely would have confronted them and definitely would have had my XD9 on me. I never could come to a conclusion if I would have drawn on them, locked them inside until the police came, or just let them run out. Had I been there, I think I probably would have held them at gunpoint and zip-tied his hands until the police arrived.

That's similar but without theft (i.e. a felony) even reasonable force (such as pulling and pointing) would not be justified. One thing that is very clear from your example is that all they did was trespass which is not a felony - it's a misdemeanor.

As I understand it the law allows you to pull a weapon to stop/detain an individual that you believe has committed a felony without firing so long as you have probable cause to believe a felony was committed. As soon as they steal something from your house/garage/property they've committed a felony.

Now taking this a step further - say they put whatever they stole back - it would be your word against theirs that they stole/attempted to steal anything. You could find yourself being charged for pulling a weapon to detain them and having to prove that they actually did attempt to steal. It's not a good situation to be in, I agree.

Thank you all for clearing things up. I guess now Im glad I wasnt there, seeing as how I probably would have gone to jail if I had done what I think I might have.

Even I would say from your example, you likely would have gone to jail so it is a good thing you weren't there/didn't take that action.

I think of myself as a reasonable individual - and in that situation - drawing the weapon wouldn't have been justified.

That's pretty much what I was saying. The code makes a pretty distinct line between reasonable force and deadly force and when they can be used.

It makes the distinction as to when one or the other is allowed - but not what constitutes reasonable force. I would interpret reasonable force as anything other than a lack of force and use of deadly force. Unless pulling a weapon and not shooting is considered deadly force - it leaves you open to pulling a weapon to stop/detain a criminal which you have probable cause to believe has committed a felony but not to shoot unless your life or limb is in serious danger.

I would never physically confront a BG. They are BGs for a reason. And in the case of the neighborhood watch thug, the BG can often get the upper hand in a physical altercation which puts you in a pretty damned tight spot.

Agreed, not really arguing the merits of confronting vs. not as much as whether you would be justified if you did decide to confront.

What is legal is not always a good idea .

I'd call the cops. And since I'm more concerned with my stuff not being stolen then with some 2 bit crook getting probation, I'd probably open the front or back door, which is facing away from the garage, and yell "Who's there?" Enough to scare of most BGs.

Personally I'd probably call the police and then do my best to identify/describe them and hope they arrived before the individual escaped - but that doesn't really discuss the law as far as reasonable force.

The "warning shot" works great in Westerns but really should not be uttered in real life. You would not take a swing at a guy but intentionally swing over his head to warn him that you are ready to hit him, would you?

No, but the BG is certainly going to be aware that you have a fist and can swing it. They may not be aware you have a gun until they hear it go off. This isn't to say it's a good idea - but that loud bang can certainly make it very clear in a hurry that you have and will use deadly force (i.e. a gun).

How about a warning flashbang?

I have no ideas what laws govern civilian use of flashbangs - but if I had one and it was legal I very well would consider using it as a part of detaining a criminal... Since I don't own any and have no ideas what the laws say about that - I am not worried about it.

 

[A 7.62 Exodus]

If the perp was trying to break into your garage, i feel as if a very heavy racking of the shotgun, followed by a "Can i help you?" would do the trick.

 

[MikeDVB]

If the perp was trying to break into your garage, i feel as if a very heavy racking of the shotgun, followed by a "Can i help you?" would do the trick.

Which isn't far from racking the slide on a handgun without pointing it at them - if it's loud enough and/or they see it. This again, would be more than "no force" and less than "deadly force" but from the way others have explained and/or commented - this in and of itself would be illegal.

 

[mainjet]

You are free to do as you wish but I for one would never fire a warning shot under any circumstances. If it comes to the point that I need to fire then it will be directly at my intended target. Because the very fact that I am firing says that I am in fear for my life or the lives of my family.

I see no scenario where a warning shot could or should be used. There is no wisdom in a warning shot and the defense of it will be difficult.

 

[MikeDVB]

You are free to do as you wish but I for one would never fire a warning shot under any circumstances. If it comes to the point that I need to fire then it will be directly at my intended target. Because the very fact that I am firing says that I am in fear for my life or the lives of my family.

I see no scenario where a warning shot could or should be used. There is no wisdom in a warning shot and the defense of it will be difficult.

Yeah, I should have left it out of the title as I'm really not interested in the laws behind it (it's reckless, no matter how you look at it).

 

[IndyBeerman]

SNIP...
So, drawing and pointing my weapon did somewhat prevent him from trying to get in without having to fire. It was my full intent to shoot if he continued to come at me, but thank God I didn't have to. I wasn't given a lecture. I wasn't brought up on or even threatened with brandishing charges. They let him go home and let me get back to playing video games.
SNIP>>>

There is no such thing as a brandishing in Indiana.

 

[MikeDVB]

There is no such thing as a brandishing in Indiana.

I was unable to find references to it as well - so if you were to pull a gun and point it at somebody and you were to be charged for that with a crime - what would the charge be? (Not speaking of justification, just if they were going to charge you). I would presume it would be intimidation?

I would think so long as you were doing it to defend yourself and/or your property or a third party it wouldn't be seen as intimidation. If you just decided to pull on somebody for no reason - that would definitely get you charges.

A quick search on "Indiana Brandishing" on Google came up with a thread here on INGO that brought this piece of code to my attention:

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.

This would seem to make pointing (and not shooting) illegal but I suppose it would depend on whether pointing is considered "reasonable force".

I really wish there was a clear definition for "reasonable force", or at least something to outline it in the law. I suppose there're a LOT of laws that are left open to interpretation.

 

[swilk]

Quote:
Indiana is a castle doctrine state with a “stand your ground” law. The statute does not require a duty to retreat, providing legal immunity for citizens who use reasonable force to protect themselves, their property or another person if they believe that serious bodily injury, a forcible felony or theft of property is imminent.

You asked for others to point out your errors .... This does not appear to be "quoting bits of law". This appears to be quoting text from a non Indiana-Code source. I did not find that exact phrase anywhere under IC 35-41-3. I would stick to the actual code when trying to determine what the code says.

Indeed, but it is an interpretation of the law - just as everybody here is trying to express their own understanding and interpretation of the law.

The added bit of "theft of property" made your interpretation of the law inaccurate. Theft of property alone has nothing to do with our "castle doctrine" and if a person uses that as their lone reason for use of deadly force I am afraid it would turn out badly.

I suppose there're a LOT of laws that are left open to interpretation.

All laws are open for interpretation .... we would not need our judicial system if they were not.

 

[indytechnerd]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/163224-are_you_going_to_jail_the_next_installment.html

Here's a nice, long thread in a similar vein that's loaded with information (good and bad).

 

[eldirector]

I really wish there was a clear definition for "reasonable force", or at least something to outline it in the law. I suppose there're a LOT of laws that are left open to interpretation.

Actually, reasonable force is somewhat defined. It is anything not considered Deadly Force.
Indiana Code 35-41-1

IC 35-41-1-7
"Deadly force"
Sec. 7. "Deadly force" means force that creates a substantial risk of serious bodily injury.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.8.

IC 35-41-1-25
"Serious bodily injury"
Sec. 25. "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes:
(1) serious permanent disfigurement;
(2) unconsciousness;
(3) extreme pain;
(4) permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member or organ; or
(5) loss of a fetus.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.26. Amended by P.L.261-1997, SEC.1.

As for "Brandishing", you are on the right track with the pointing law. The other one to watch out for is Intimidation:
Indiana Code 35-45-2

IC 35-45-2-1
Intimidation
Sec. 1. (a) A person who communicates a threat to another person, with the intent:
(1) that the other person engage in conduct against the other person's will;
(2) that the other person be placed in fear of retaliation for a prior lawful act; or
(3) of causing:
(A) a dwelling, a building, or another structure; or
(B) a vehicle;
to be evacuated;
commits intimidation, a Class A misdemeanor.
<snip>
(2) Class C felony if, while committing it, the person draws or uses a deadly weapon.

So, make sure that the person is actually committing a crime before you use a weapon in ANY way.

 

[MikeDVB]

The added bit of "theft of property" made your interpretation of the law inaccurate. Theft of property alone has nothing to do with our "castle doctrine" and if a person uses that as their lone reason for use of deadly force I am afraid it would turn out badly.

I am actually talking about *not* using deadly force but using more than no force. Not saying about castle doctrine as the code allows you to detain somebody you have probable cause has committed a felony (theft) using reasonable force.

All laws are open for interpretation .... we would not need our judicial system if they were not.

Good point, and no need for lawyers either.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/163224-are_you_going_to_jail_the_next_installment.html

Here's a nice, long thread in a similar vein that's loaded with information (good and bad).

Thanks for the link, I'll look it over.

Actually, reasonable force is somewhat defined. It is anything not considered Deadly Force.
Indiana Code 35-41-1



As for "Brandishing", you are on the right track with the pointing law. The other one to watch out for is Intimidation:
Indiana Code 35-45-2

So, make sure that the person is actually committing a crime before you use a weapon in ANY way.

Indeed, common sense would come into play. Too bad common sense isn't as common as its name indicates.

 

[swilk]

I am actually talking about *not* using deadly force but using more than no force. Not saying about castle doctrine as the code allows you to detain somebody you have probable cause has committed a felony (theft) using reasonable force.

Is simple theft a felony? I dont think it is.

I asked the Gibson County Sheriffs office about detaining a trespasser against their will until the police arrived and I was told "not a good idea".

To answer your question on what I would do .... I would grab the cell phone and the shotgun as I was walking out the door. Call 911 and try to figure out what the heck was going on. If the would be thief ran I would try and get him/her to stop with verbal warnings of a colorful nature but in the end I aint shooting them and I sure as hell aint running after them. If they decide to stay till the police got there I would let them handle it from there.

 

[SaintsNSinners]

Draw to shoot and only shoot to kill

 

[JettaKnight]

Draw to shoot and only shoot to kill

Aren't we debating this in another thread?

I would argue not to draw unless you are justified to shoot. Then don't shoot unless you have too. Finally, don't stop shooting unless the threat is stopped.

Don't shoot to kill - shoot to stop the threat as quickly as possible! The side effect of this is the high probability of death. Yes, there is a difference. If you shoot, the attacker continues, mortally wounds you or another with a knife and then dies, you've done it, you've killed him, but you didn't stop him.


The other thing I have to add to this thread - Never get in the middle of a domestic dispute!

 

[JettaKnight]

Is simple theft a felony? I dont think it is.

I asked the Gibson County Sheriffs office about detaining a trespasser against their will until the police arrived and I was told "not a good idea".

To answer your question on what I would do .... I would grab the cell phone and the shotgun as I was walking out the door. Call 911 and try to figure out what the heck was going on. If the would be thief ran I would try and get him/her to stop with verbal warnings of a colorful nature but in the end I aint shooting them and I sure as hell aint running after them. If they decide to stay till the police got there I would let them handle it from there.

^^^^ This.

We carry guns to protect our lives and the lives of others. Not to protect stuff and definitely not to protect our egos nor do we enforce the law. For me, nothing I own is worth spilling blood over.