Pulled over tonight

[haldir]

I have been pulled over a few times (even got to sit in the back of the squad car one time) but have only gotten a couple warnings in the last 25 years. I have always stuck with yes sir, no sir, sorry sir and thank you sir. It has served me pretty well.

 

[esrice]

The point is that the cop can talk to me how he wants, but because of the power differential, I must choose my words carefully when I talk to him.

That's just life. There will always be authority, and therefore authority figures.

You shouldn't disrespect a teacher in grade school because she asked you why your homework wasn't done, right? Or disrespect your parent because they disciplined you, right?

 

[public servant]

Perhaps you haven't read the entire thread.

Why would an LEO ask, "Why?" a carry pistol was loaded? He's either stupid - which I don't believe, or he's using a situation in which he has the power advantage to voice his opinion. I say in that situation he should keep it to himself.

The point isn't that I would talk to someone like that, the point is if someone asks me a condescending question, they deserve a less than pleasant answer - unless of course I have to balance the fact that they have enormous situational power over me at the moment.

The point is that the cop can talk to me how he wants, but because of the power differential, I must choose my words carefully when I talk to him.

You disparaged my maturity and my upbringing. Do you stand by that?

Actually, no he can't talk to you how he wants. His department no doubt has policies covering that. He cannot demean or belittle you. Nor should he be allowed to. I'm a firm believer in treating everyone the same....like you haven't found the body in the trunk yet. Everyone is a potential threat....everyone a potential mass murderer. Everyone could potentially shoot me in the face or stab me in the neck. That treatment on my part does not include blurting out every 4 letter word in the dictionary and hurling it at anyone. You make yourself look immature and childish when you do. It does nothing to promote your ideas and argument. In fact, it has just the opposite effect.

While I personally don't see the logic in asking the question, "why is your gun loaded", I don't see it as a violation of your rights. He can't force you to answer it. He can't arrest you for not answering it. It was a question. Perhaps he had a motive for asking it, perhaps not. I personally don't know....but you have the right to form your own opinions about it....as he had the right to express his by asking the question. As long as you're willing to demand your rights are not infringed, you cannot infringe on the rights of others in the process.

You told someone earlier in the conversation that "Your language reveals your mindset". Yours speaks volumes of your own. The mere fact is, again quoting you, "This is the kind of thing that annoys me about cops". Pure and simple, because for some reason you feel a LEO has some sort of "power" advantage over you, you object.

While I have no problem with you expressing your views or thoughts, keep in mind how you express it may be offensive others. But you have that right. I personally don't feel a string of 4 letter words is the best way of conveying your message. Apparently we differ in that.

From reading your posts I understand that you will not offer that you are carrying a firearm (again...well within your rights). What would be your response when the LEO asks you if you have any weapons on you?

 

[Lex Concord]

There is plenty of case law handed down by the Supreme Court that this falls under an officer safety issue. The veiw the short "seizure" of you handgun for the duration of the stop (usually measured in mere minutes) as a reasonable "seizure". Remember the 4th protects against unreasonable searches and seizures.

The USSC has been pretty good through the years of seeing things from an officer safety side of things, such as asking a driver to step from their vehicle. By removing someone from their vehicle an officer is in effect "seizing" them as they are not free to leave, nor would any driver be from a traffic stop. Whether it is a drunk driving case or a car full of thugs and you would like to speak to the driver from the relative safety of yoiur car instead of standing next to a car full of heathens, the USSC has recognized that officers need to do certain things to stay safe. The temporary "seizure" of a handgun, while legally owned and carried, falls under that through process.

Did I help clarify that or just make it worse?

I see your point on officer safety regarding the temporary "seizure", and I have no doubt that SCotUS and other courts side with officers - these days they tend to defend state powers, even those that are clearly unconstitutional, though I'm not arguing that is necessarily the case here - but running the serial number in the DB is not required to ensure officer safety.

Such an action seems to be tantamount to printing you once you're pulled over to be sure your prints don't match those in an ongoing investigation.

I realize that LEO's run ID against outstanding warrants for probably every stop...this action just seems one step beyond.

To be quite honest this has me convinced that offering this info is not something I'd be likely to do. Now, if asked, I certainly wouldn't lie, but there is no requirement that you declare carry here in Indiana, so I'd probably keep it to myself unless I judge that his knowing may be relevant to my safety.

And to answer the question posed to another, no, it's not likely that a cell phone can be dangerous or lethal to an officer, but neither is a handgun which is in the possession of the officer (unless he's actually an ATFE agent ) . At the point the officer has possession of the weapon, whether it was stolen or not is irrelevant to his safety in regard to that particular weapon.

 

[public servant]

I have been pulled over a few times (even got to sit in the back of the squad car one time) but have only gotten a couple warnings in the last 25 years. I have always stuck with yes sir, no sir, sorry sir and thank you sir. It has served me pretty well.

See? This is what I'm talking about....mutual respect. I personally feel uncomfortable when someone calls me "sir". I'm due no more respect than they are. But it shows maturity and mutual respect. And it beats the hell out of what I was called this morning....several times. I really do know who my father is!!!! And never, never have I had sexual relations with my mother. (wow...that almost sounded like Bill Clinton)

 

[iam1096]

My window tint is dark but when I was pulled over it was about 4:30pm Sunny day. Both front windows were almost all the way down. So if the tint was the reason,most of it was hidden. The officer was nice about the gun. He never asked for it but asked if it was loaded and where it was. I most officers are honest and great guys. This one was a good guy, I believe young and fishing. It is my fault for my window tint. I will always tell a LEO I am armed because I would want to be told.
I have been the one walking up to the car I have pulled over. It takes balls to do it!! I would almost never take a gun from someone who told me they are carrying. I would maybe from someone who hasn't.
By the way I would still be a LEO if my best friend wasn't killed in line of duty. Shot by a prisoner that he was transporting and I would have been sitting next to him if my police department didn't have a call in. To much for my family to take so I gave it up.

 

[Bill of Rights]

See? This is what I'm talking about....mutual respect. I personally feel uncomfortable when someone calls me "sir". I'm due no more respect than they are. But it shows maturity and mutual respect. And it beats the hell out of what I was called this morning....several times. I really do know who my father is!!!! And never, never have I had sexual relations with my mother. (wow...that almost sounded like Bill Clinton)

See, now that confuses me a little. On the one hand, you say that you're due no more (and implicitly, no less) respect than they are, but you feel uncomfortable being called, "Sir"? That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me (not that it has to), since I would guess that you would speak to the driver (or whoever) with polite terms such as "May I see your license and registration, please, sir?" or "Step out of the car, please, Ma'am."

No more, no less, just mutual cordiality... Respect probably goes a wee bit farther than this does, since it is earned, not given, but that clearly is semantics. Going back to an earlier post, you said you treat everyone the same-as if you've not found the body in the trunk yet. I'm curious if that extends to other LEOs (or possibly your mayor?) as well? Further, after you've verified that the pistol you've just confiscated, albeit temporarily, is not, in fact, reported as stolen, what safety do you gain by giving it back to the lawful owner either empty, field-stripped, or both? Is that lawful owner still suspect, still to be treated as an undiscovered murderer, even after you are without proof of any wrongdoing (possibly excepting a minor "lead foot") on his/her part? Again, I know the presumption of innocence is in theory a "court thing", but does that truly mean that everyone must (or even should) be viewed through the reverse lens: Guilty until proven innocent? (an impossibility to ever prove; I can only prove I've not been charged with a crime, not that I've never committed one.)


Several questions above:
Is everyone treated as an undiscovered murderer or just those who aren't either in your profession or one that holds power over you?
What safety is there in emptying or stripping down a pistol, or both?
Is the 99% lawful citizen still untrustworthy even in the absence of evidence of guilt?
Is "guilty until proven innocent" truly a tenable alternative?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[dross]

That's just life. There will always be authority, and therefore authority figures.

You shouldn't disrespect a teacher in grade school because she asked you why your homework wasn't done, right? Or disrespect your parent because they disciplined you, right?

I have no problem with authority. When a teacher asks me why my homework isn't done, he is attempting to find out why I didn't do something that was required of me. If the cop asked me why I was speeding, I wouldn't have a problem with that. When he asks me why my carry gun is loaded, he isn't really seeking information, he's making a comment about citizens carrying guns.

 

[HICKMAN]

Hey guys I'm at work so I'm trying to reply as I can. I'm not ignoring anyone...I just have the time for long winded responses.

 

[fpdshooter]

I don't know nothing 'bout nothing!

 

[tv1217]

Ahahaha, I bet the Saint John cops do that when they're not doing traffic stops with 5 squads.

 

[dross]

Actually, no he can't talk to you how he wants. His department no doubt has policies covering that. He cannot demean or belittle you. Nor should he be allowed to. I'm a firm believer in treating everyone the same....like you haven't found the body in the trunk yet. Everyone is a potential threat....everyone a potential mass murderer. Everyone could potentially shoot me in the face or stab me in the neck. That treatment on my part does not include blurting out every 4 letter word in the dictionary and hurling it at anyone. You make yourself look immature and childish when you do. It does nothing to promote your ideas and argument. In fact, it has just the opposite effect.

While I personally don't see the logic in asking the question, "why is your gun loaded", I don't see it as a violation of your rights. He can't force you to answer it. He can't arrest you for not answering it. It was a question. Perhaps he had a motive for asking it, perhaps not. I personally don't know....but you have the right to form your own opinions about it....as he had the right to express his by asking the question. As long as you're willing to demand your rights are not infringed, you cannot infringe on the rights of others in the process.

You told someone earlier in the conversation that "Your language reveals your mindset". Yours speaks volumes of your own. The mere fact is, again quoting you, "This is the kind of thing that annoys me about cops". Pure and simple, because for some reason you feel a LEO has some sort of "power" advantage over you, you object.

While I have no problem with you expressing your views or thoughts, keep in mind how you express it may be offensive others. But you have that right. I personally don't feel a string of 4 letter words is the best way of conveying your message. Apparently we differ in that.

From reading your posts I understand that you will not offer that you are carrying a firearm (again...well within your rights). What would be your response when the LEO asks you if you have any weapons on you?

I think you're hung up on my saying I could tell a regular citizen to F off. I don't talk to people like that, and the point wasn't that I want to tell a cop that. The point is that any question a cop asks me when he has forcibly detained me carries with it the weight of his authority.

I'm not saying my rights have been violated if a cop asks me why my gun is loaded, and I understand I don't have to answer. I'm just saying that when you have the power to stop someone, make them sit there until you've checked them out, and the power to question them, you should have the professionalism not to make comments that have nothing to do with the stop, but simply offer your opinion about their legal rights. Unless you can explain another reason for such a silly question, as why is a carry gun loaded.

To answer your question about what I would do if asked, the way I understand it, I have to tell a cop if he asks. So I would.

Whether to tell a cop you're carrying is an often-discussed subject on this site. Check out how many people have veiwed this thread. What you've told those people is that if they don't tell a cop they're carrying, they'll be on their way quicker, and they won't have to surrender their gun. But if they do tell the cop, they'll have to sit there while the cop runs the check, and they'll have to give up their weapon. You're taking the weapon for safety, you say. Did you just make yourself less safe? Or is another way to look at it that you're irritating the very people who are extending you the most consideration?

 

[tv1217]

You have to take into consideration that the officer is concerned about his personal safety, they're people just like us and they don't want to end their shifts early to take a trip to the hospital/morgue.

 

[clt46910]

I been stopped twice while carrying. Both times handed my license and carry permit to the officer at the same time. Both times asked if I had it on me and where. Either officer asked for my gun only said to leave it there and thanks for telling them. Got a warning both times to slow my speed down. Both was polite and professional. I also find that being polite works for me. I will always tell an officer I am carrying when stopped.

 

[tv1217]

There's another thing, you're attitude, if you're being treated like **** by cops, it's possible that you just have ****** cops by you, but it's more often your demeanor.

Except in IL, they're all douches

 

[HICKMAN]

I guess this thread has helped me make up my mind about informing LEOS of my carry status.

I'm still happy with my positive experience with the Shelbyville PD.

I'd rather get my gun back assembled with bullets in the mag, doesn't have to be loaded, but ya know something reasonable.

 

[Hotdoger]

I'm still happy with my positive experience with the Shelbyville PD.

I'd rather get my gun back assembled with bullets in the mag, doesn't have to be loaded, but ya know something reasonable.

I think you may have had an exceptional experience. I don't think that would have been the case if you would have had been in Indy, Gary , Ft Wayne or even Westfield. I know a girl that got a ticket there for not having her turn signal on long enough.
I got stopped by the marshal in Sherdian last year 1am. 40 in a 35. He did not ask if I was armed. Gave me a verbal "slow down" after running everything.
They sit on side streets watching 47. I knew better but was not paying attention. From related stories anything over 35 can get you stopped.

Also got stopped in Indy last year. Took my seat beat off so I could get the phone out of my pocket. Ipd saw me without it on and popped me. Never asked me about firearms. He gave me a ticket even with explantation. Seat belt wasn't off for 1 minute. He didn't care.

 

[mikea46996]

Kind of off target here but I have a question for the LEOs that have responded..

I have never been asked to surrender my PPW when pulled over but if I was I would for both my safety and the officers safety. However I am not about to hand anybody a loaded weapon. I always carry with one in the tube. What would be the best way to let the officer know and proceed without seeming like a threat or just a jerk. It is not that I don't trust the officer but I WILL NOT hand a loaded weapon to anybody.

 

[Bill of Rights]

You have to take into consideration that the officer is concerned about his personal safety, they're people just like us and they don't want to end their shifts early to take a trip to the hospital/morgue.

I agree with your second point, but your first baffles me. I'm still waiting to hear how handing a gun back to it's rightful owner who just volunteered to you the fact that he's carrying and handed you the pistol to check jeopardizes anyone's safety. Further, OK, so if I really am a threat, is handing me back a gun and an empty mag going to change anything. How many of us carry spare mags on us? and honestly, is it that hard to put a stripped pistol back together?

This is, as noted, about the LEO "feeling safe" even when s/he is less so by his/her own actions, rather than being safe by just leaving well enough alone. If you think you have to check the SN on my pistol, once you verify it's not reported stolen, I'd sure appreciate it being handed back to me with a simple, "Thanks, Sorry for the inconvenience."

It would be similar to <begin movie scenario> if I, driving very fast, get a bubble gum machine in my rear view mirror. I don't slow down, and the cop pulls alongside to point me to the side of the road. My window goes down and I yell, "LADY WITH A BABY!!" or "MY KID IS SICK!!" and instead of stopping me, he pulls ahead and does the "weave" to clear the road for me, recognizing that that's the safer thing to do AND to verify I really am going to the hospital. Once that's confirmed, I might get a citation, but much more likely, I think, that I'd get a "DON'T do that again!" type warning in full understanding of the reason for my actions. The difference? In the latter case, I would actually have been doing something both dangerous and in violation of the law, but for the right reason, where in the former, my actions would have been confirmed as lawful and safe, yet that's the time you're going to intentionally inconvenience me? <end scenario>

I want our good LEOs to go home safely at the end of their shifts, too. Hell, for that matter, I even want our bad LEOs to go home safely at the end of their shifts (though I'd prefer they did so jobless, so as to protect the public from them and stop them tarnishing the others' good names)... but emptying and/or field stripping our guns (with which they may not be familiar) before handing them back is not the way to advance that goal.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

Kind of off target here but I have a question for the LEOs that have responded..

I have never been asked to surrender my PPW when pulled over but if I was I would for both my safety and the officers safety. However I am not about to hand anybody a loaded weapon. I always carry with one in the tube. What would be the best way to let the officer know and proceed without seeming like a threat or just a jerk. It is not that I don't trust the officer but I WILL NOT hand a loaded weapon to anybody.

I'm no LEO, but if the officer reached across me for it :dumbass:, I would politely say, "Officer, for your safety and mine, I'd much prefer if you'd let me do that." and go on to suggest that he stand wherever he wishes to cover me while I exited the vehicle, then slowly removed the weapon from my belt and either placed it out of reach and locked my car door with it inside or dropped the mag and jacked the slide to eject the chamber to hand it over with the slide back.

(I'll agree that he has a db he can use to check the pistol to confirm it's not stolen, but there's no db for the magazine nor the ammo. Those are mine-unless it's only the stated goal of the dept policy to check for stolen, and the real agenda is to disarm the people, or to simply get them used to being disarmed by LEOs.)

If the officer insists that he be the one to draw the pistol from my holster, I would stand and bend my body as much as possible to reduce or eliminate any chance of it pointing at my body while he did so, over my very vocal objection.



Blessings,
Bill