Protect your money!

[Que]

I recently started this thread after hearing that an internet swindler was finally caught after cheating many gun owners out of their hard earned money. So, I was thinking, what if I had an issue with a gun I bought through INGO and the member I bought it from wouldn't respond to my attempts to make the matter right? BUYER BEWARE!

I'm posting this thread as a member of what is arguably the best gun forum around and I don't want some cheater(s) jacking up our reputation. As we grow, beware of people trying to pass on junk! It's not inconceivable that someone will pay their $10 and post a LNIB Glock or 1911 at a great price and after buying it, you get it to the range and find there are problems. I'm not advocating that we all start wearing tin foil caps, but BUYER BEWARE!

In the past, I have completed sales at the range to allow the buyer to shoot the gun before buying. I have offered the buyer the option to return the gun in three days. I've met people at Bradis just to let Shooter take a look if I saw something funny. What do you do to protect your money or reputation? What are some other things that can be done to ensure buyers are not cheated on INGO? Remember, INGO is not responsible for sales that are initiated through the forum, so what other options exist that will promote good transactions?

 

[lovemachine]

I've yet to buy anything off the classifieds. But, IMO, the "techniques" you mentioned are the best things you can do to protect both parties.

 

[Que]

I don't recall where I was, but somebody said, "Yeah, if it turns out to be no good, I'll put it on ________." It wasn't INGO, but I was still taken aback by the statement.

 

[Jay]

Say what you will, but I won't buy without a signed statement from the seller to the effect that the gun will function as designed.... and contact info for the seller. If the seller doesn't want to provide that info, that's ok, I'll shop elsewhere. As far as INGO is concerned, the feedback thread works well. Past selling history is a pretty decent indicator.

Just my two cents......

 

[sbcman]

Thanks for the heads-up on the scammer- it is good to keep an eye out for such activity.

The options you mentioned are solid. I've never purchased anything of the ingo classifieds, but did sale a Model 29. Anytime I've ever sold a gun I just let the buyer know that if he has any troubles within the first month of purchasing, or just regrets it, then return it to me in the condition they bought it and their money will be given back.

I guess its just the nature of the soceity we live in, but folks are sometimes really surprised by it. One time a sold a handgun to a guy that when I owned it had to go back to the factory for some minor work. The factory sent a letter saying what they did to it and I put that letter in the case. I planned to tell the guy about it, but simply forgot. He read the letter later and called somewhat ticked-off till I told him "let me come to you and give you your money back in full." Hehe- he said, "oh, well, if you believe in it that strongly, I'll just keep it." I still offered him the 30 day window to bring it back, but he was totally cool with it.

I don't think scammers would make it very far on ingo because of the communication this forum has with its members. This place isn't like armslist or whatever where it's really every man for himself. One guy might get burnt, but the rest of us would probably learn about it that very day. Plus, I like that on here you can see a history of someone if you look to buy from them, and even ratings from other members who have bought from them.

 

[Que]

Say what you will, but I won't buy without a signed statement from the seller to the effect that the gun will function as designed.... and contact info for the seller. If the seller doesn't want to provide that info, that's ok, I'll shop elsewhere. As far as INGO is concerned, the feedback thread works well. Past selling history is a pretty decent indicator.

Just my two cents......

Jay, you bring up an interesting point about documentation. So, let's say I sell you a gun, sign your papers, and provide all the information you want. The next day, you get to the range and find there is something wrong. You contact me and I say, "It has never given me any problems, so maybe it's your ammo or you are limp-wristing it." What are you going to do about it?

I know that any kind of scenario can be conjured up, but I'm trying to understand how the documentation is going to help bring resolution.

 

[Jay]

I think that most folks who would be willing to provide that documentation, wouldn't do so willingly, with malice aforethought. In your scenario, I'd get together with the seller to shoot the gun and see what's what. In the absence of any resolution, and depending on the value of the gun, the "function as designed" statement may hold up in court. Another alternative would be to have a "qualified" gunsmith check the gun out before the sale, or after a potential problem is discovered.

I don't buy a motor vehicle without checking it out, or a firearm, either.....

 

[Que]

I think that most folks who would be willing to provide that documentation, wouldn't do so willingly, with malice aforethought. In your scenario, I'd get together with the seller to shoot the gun and see what's what. In the absence of any resolution, and depending on the value of the gun, the "function as designed" statement may hold up in court. Another alternative would be to have a "qualified" gunsmith check the gun out before the sale, or after a potential problem is discovered.

I don't buy a motor vehicle without checking it out, or a firearm, either.....

I don't want to jack my own thread, but I would venture to say that most people, including me, are not very comfortable about giving an address, LTCH number, DL#, or other information to strangers. I tend to pass on sales requiring they copy this kind of information.

I think the major point of my thread is to seek out ideas about what can be done prior to exchanging money. I do think meeting at the range or allowing a gunsmith to take a look is a good idea. In your reference to a car, at least you can take it for a test drive before forking over your money.

 

[Jay]

I tend to have a problem accepting that a seller would ask you to trust that his item (especially a firearm) functions safely and properly, and will not cause you bodily harm, yet would hesitate to trust that you won't abuse his information. Two way street, the way I see it.

However, it's a "to each his/her own" situation......

 

[Que]

I tend to have a problem accepting that a seller would ask you to trust that his item (especially a firearm) functions safely and properly, and will not cause you bodily harm, yet would hesitate to trust that you won't abuse his information. Two way street, the way I see it.

However, it's a "to each his/her own" situation......

Agreed. In that situation, I guess an FFL is the only recourse.

 

[Jay]

In your reference to a car, at least you can take it for a test drive before forking over your money.

I neglected to address this part of your response........

If at all possible, I make every effort to shoot a firearm before I fork over the money. Unless logistically impossible, anyone refusing to allow a used firearm to be test fired prior to purchase, should raise all sorts of caution flags to me. Buying a NIB firearm would be different.

 

[edsinger]

I have been very fortunate with INGO, not a single issue with any of my purchases. I look at the members rep and post history. Sometimes in life you have to trust someone. The first time I purchased something I was very nervous, the second time it wasn't so bad.

I have never sold anything because I am a pack rat, but nonetheless, when you search a persons history, you can get an idea of how they are I would think.

If they are 'new' to the forum then that becomes more difficult for sure.

This is a good thread.

To those I have personally purchased firearm related items +1

 

[WebSnyper]

As we grow, beware of people trying to pass on junk! It's not inconceivable that someone will pay their $10 and post a LNIB Glock or 1911 at a great price and after buying it, you get it to the range and find there are problems.

I have not bought/sold on the INGO classifieds, and haven't researched it fully, but I do think that allowing a person to pay the $10 to be a site supporter in order to bypass the minimum posting requirements is just asking for some abuse. It is obviously better than allowing immediate participation in the classifieds, but seems to me that the posting history is more important evidence of someone's character than paying $10.

 

[chocktaw2]

I buy my firearms new from the gun shop. Plug here for 21st. I never have to worry about " this can o worms". There are some things I will not purchase used, and guns are #1. I don't have to worry about anything. Just take it back if not satisfied . I like knowing the history of my guns, and I only want good karma with my weapon!

 

[revsaxon]

Of the few I have sold here I offer the buyers a chance to shoot it first (when applicable, I sold a stripped lower for example and can't really test fire that...). If they had wanted to bring it to a smith and get it looked over first I would not have had a problem with that, assuming their dime not mine, if im selling a gun I need the money. Heck, if they came to me months later and said they were having problems I would make it right however I could, like working with them to try and diagnose/fix the problem, or in one case a flat out refund. Only exception being if they had modified the gun or shoot reloads thru it. At that point in my mind there is no way I could be reasonably expected to provide any level of support. I find if I treat most buyers as honest people, they turn out to be like that.

That said when I sell a gun I ask to see a LTCH and an Indiana drivers licence. Don't want any information off them, just don't want the legal headache of accidentally selling to someone from out of state. Its not that I don't think people are honest there, its a why risk it situation.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Good subject Que...

I've bought several things from a lot of cool people on INGO. Never had a problem. Every last person was reasonable. I suspect that I will be slow to SELL on INGO, just because I value my reputation and would hate to sell something that someone else had a problem with. If I was going to sell (on INGO - or anywhere else for that matter...) I like the idea of offering three days to get things checked out, or meet at a range or a smith. If that doesn't keep a buyer happy, then there's not much to be done.

 

[Jay]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.... a buyer needs to be somewhat educated about whatever he's buying. A buyer should be able to reasonably discern the condition of a given item of interest.....

 

[wetidlerjr]

I tend to have a problem accepting that a seller would ask you to trust that his item (especially a firearm) functions safely and properly, and will not cause you bodily harm, yet would hesitate to trust that you won't abuse his information. Two way street, the way I see it.

However, it's a "to each his/her own" situation......

Indeed it is and most people I know wouldn't do as you ask (myself included) simply because I can only tell you the firearm works as intended at the last time I used it. I also wouldn't give any written info to someone "I don't know from Adam". As stated by you, we wouldn't be doing business unless I did so it's all moot in the end.

 

[IndyIN]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned.... a buyer needs to be somewhat educated about whatever he's buying. A buyer should be able to reasonably discern the condition of a given item of interest.....

I agree with this statement, there is significant burden on the buyer to check it out to the best of his/her ability.

I've sold a fair amount of non-firearms related stuff on eBay and a golf forum, it's always a touchy subject as far as implied warranty. How long do you guarantee an item? How do you determine if misuse contributed to the issue? I stand behind the items I sell, but I do feel that the purchaser has a window as far as recourse with me. There should be a reasonable time period, and then a deal is a deal.

People may not want to look at it this way, but they are taking on risk by purchasing from an internet forum. You don't really know the people or history. The risk is off set by a generally lower cost for the item. I don't think it's reasonable to expect cut rate prices from an individual, and expect the same kind of recourse that's available through a store. You kind of have to pick one or the other and live with the result. The reality is if I purchase a gun face to face and figure out later there is a problem, there is little that can be done but complain. It may sound blunt, but if you (not you personally) don't have the stomach for it don't do it. It's really a calculated gamble, period.

 

[ISHOOTHST'S]

I dont buy used guns for the very factor of what op said, having problems after purchase. Accessories and ammo diff story.