Police force open a door

[Denny347]

First off, Why are the police intervening in a suicide? I can see it if other people were at risk but if the man was in the privacy of his own home and wanted to kill himself and was harming no one other than himself than that is his business not theirs. Not saying its right but we don't need the police to save us from ourselves.

Second from my understanding they can not enter without a warrant, so the man was in his rights, now if he handled it properly is still in question imho. We don't know any of the particulars other than what the police said (and I respect all of our law enforcement men and women) but maybe the man was asleep and woken up by the banging on his door and then next thing you know the door is being kicked in.......I think I would do the same thing however when asked to put the gun down and found out what was going on I would have cooperated.

Because if we are made aware of a suicidal person and DON'T intervene, you bet your arse that if they hurt themselves or someone else, the officers/department/city will get sued. They have in the past and lost. Yes, we usually need a warrant to enter a house. However, we are allowed to make entry based on exigent circumstances.
Exigent circumstance in United States law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[GPD177]

What Denny said. Personally, I would be thrilled not to have to go deal with these nut jobs. Seems like we have to go on a welfare check at least once a week. I have heard, verbatim, from the callers that if we dont do something it is out arse. So, for all of you who hate the police, please feel free to get the laws changed so that LE is not held liable when your loved one offs themselves.

 

[coyn]

What Denny said. Personally, I would be thrilled not to have to go deal with these nut jobs. Seems like we have to go on a welfare check at least once a week. I have heard, verbatim, from the callers that if we dont do something it is out arse. So, for all of you who hate the police, please feel free to get the laws changed so that LE is not held liable when your loved one offs themselves.

I personally don't hate the police and see where you're coming from on this. I was just asking for some clarification because it seemed to me that there wasn't probable cause, per se, so would the castle doctrine hold up on this. I would agree that the law should be changed as you say because if the person wants to go through with it, IMO I think they would with or without your intervention and you shouldn't be held liable for another's actions. Just my opinion tho.

 

[thebishopp]

Because if we are made aware of a suicidal person and DON'T intervene, you bet your arse that if they hurt themselves or someone else, the officers/department/city will get sued. They have in the past and lost. Yes, we usually need a warrant to enter a house. However, we are allowed to make entry based on exigent circumstances.
Exigent circumstance in United States law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please cite at least one successful case where police did not intervene in a suicide threat, were sued, and lost.

Keep in mind it needs to be of a similar circumstance, not something like "guy was holding a gun to his head in the parking lot in front of everyone".

A case where someone "says" someone else "said" they were going to kill themselves so Officers responded to the other persons residence. No one answered so Officers didn't break down the door with a warrantless entry. Person killed themselves and the City was successfully sued for failure to act.

As far as "exigent circumstances" I am well aware how this gets misused. "I heard someone call for help", "Sounded like someone was in distress", "I smell smoke/marijuana/odd smell though it might be a body/gas leak/etc." Nothing found - oh well, honest mistake. Something found - Jackpot!

It's become way to easy to make end runs around or flat out scrap the 4th Amendment.

Here's how it used to work:

One night back in the mid 90s I get dispatched to a house. Dispatch says someone called in saying their boyfriend called her and told her he was going to kill himself. Says he's at home and won't answer her calls. I get there no one answers door, lights out in the house. Calls up the chain say "NO PC". Long story short we were not allowed to bust in the door.

 

[thebishopp]

What Denny said. Personally, I would be thrilled not to have to go deal with these nut jobs. Seems like we have to go on a welfare check at least once a week. I have heard, verbatim, from the callers that if we dont do something it is out arse. So, for all of you who hate the police, please feel free to get the laws changed so that LE is not held liable when your loved one offs themselves.

The USSC has ruled several time (just recently in 05 I believe) that the Police do NOT have a Constitutional duty to respond/protect citizens.

So, please cite the law which holds police liable when our loved one's off themselves.

 

[Rookie]

First off, Why are the police intervening in a suicide?

Just the other night, my wife found my daughter attempting to slit her wrists. We wrestled the knife away from her and I held her down until the police arrived. Shame on me, huh?

 

[femurphy77]

The USSC has ruled several time (just recently in 05 I believe) that the Police do NOT have a Constitutional duty to respond/protect citizens.

So, please cite the law which holds police liable when our loved one's off themselves.

Not a cop, don't play one on TV, didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night, but. . . . . . . . .anybody can sue anybody for anything. Winning is another story. The time, effort, money, stress, etc of defending against a frivolous lawsuit can be just as bad as defending against a justified lawsuit.

 

[netsecurity]

Here's how it used to work:

One night back in the mid 90s I get dispatched to a house. Dispatch says someone called in saying their boyfriend called her and told her he was going to kill himself. Says he's at home and won't answer her calls. I get there no one answers door, lights out in the house. Calls up the chain say "NO PC". Long story short we were not allowed to bust in the door.

Yea, well this guy was in a trailer home. I'm sure that if he didn't verbally answer their knocks, they could hear him, or see him through a window if he was just sitting in a chair with a gun.

 

[thebishopp]

Not a cop, don't play one on TV, didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night, but. . . . . . . . .anybody can sue anybody for anything. Winning is another story. The time, effort, money, stress, etc of defending against a frivolous lawsuit can be just as bad as defending against a justified lawsuit.

"please feel free to get the laws changed so that LE is not held liable when your loved one offs themselves."

Your reply to my post has nothing to do with this. Again please cite the specific law which holds police liable when our loved one's off themselves. There is no "Constitutional" duty per USSC.


Yes anyone can be sued for anything.

I could sue you for writing that post (providing it doesn't get tossed out as frivolous), so why don't you just spare yourself the time, effort, money, stress, etc. of defending against a frivolous lawsuit by sending me a hundred bucks.

I think I am being more than reasonable allowed you to settle out of court like this for such a low amount, especially considering all the time, effort, money, stress, etc, I am saving you by allowing you to do so.

 

[thebishopp]

Yea, well this guy was in a trailer home. I'm sure that if he didn't verbally answer their knocks, they could hear him, or see him through a window if he was just sitting in a chair with a gun.

Lot of assumptions huh? You are "sure" they could "hear" him in there planning a suicide? Maybe even saw him sitting in a chair with a gun you say! Wow! Then after hearing him planning his suicide, seeing him sitting in the chair with a gun they decide to break into the trailer!

Yeah that's a recipe for a successful suicide intervention! LOL.

"Yea, well"... Meanwhile in the real world...

Actually, the fact that no lights were one and no one would answer the door was argument that the guy already offed himself or was lying on the floor needing medical attention.... wait, nope, that' argument didn't fly back then either. It just wasn't enough to satisfy the 4th Amendment requirements allowing us to lawfully enter someone's home.

Personally I think it's too much tv. All these cop shows I see have police enter homes just because they "think" something is up. I "think" the public is being conditioned by these shows to find it acceptable. After all they are just "checking on the welfare".

 

[netsecurity]

No, I'm just saying there is a difference between knocking and no answer, vs hearing someone inside, and the fact that it was a trailer probably makes it easier to see or at least hear through the thin walls. If you have a caller suggesting a suicidal person is inside, and you verify that someone is inside who isn't answering the door, then you go in. They could be laying there bleeding. Entry is justified by law.

However, like in the post i responded to, if no one answers and there is no sign of someone inside, I don't think a cop would normally enter, except under extreme circumstances. Not sure what the law is on that, but I know cops get welfare check calls all the time and don't bust down doors when no one answers.

 

[thebishopp]

No, I'm just saying there is a difference between knocking and no answer, vs hearing someone inside, and the fact that it was a trailer probably makes it easier to see or at least hear through the thin walls. If you have a caller suggesting a suicidal person is inside, and you verify that someone is inside who isn't answering the door, then you go in. They could be laying there bleeding. Entry is justified by law.

However, like in the post i responded to, if no one answers and there is no sign of someone inside, I don't think a cop would normally enter, except under extreme circumstances. Not sure what the law is on that, but I know cops get welfare check calls all the time and don't bust down doors when no one answers.

Isn't it proof the person is alive and not dead if you can actually hear someone in there? Keep in mind we are assuming it is a person and not the tv or radio they are "hearing" through the walls.

Someone not answering or you can't hear them is just as much "proof" of a suicide as hearing someone moving about in their home is "proof" that they are about to or are planning to kill themselves.

I wouldn't say it is "justified under the law". More accurately it would be "justified by public acceptance".

The fact is that all of our Constitutionally protected rights (or formally so I should say) have been weakened. In this case, it used to take much more than someone refusing to answer their door to justify entry.

As far as officers going on welfare checks all the time and not busting down doors, well they could, based on cases like this.

In that case I was dispatched to the resolution was to have a unit swing by as available and the info was passed on to the next shift. Note that later that night a light was seen on in the window. Nope, still not enough to bust down the door much less get a warrant.

 

[Kmcinnes]

Just the other night, my wife found my daughter attempting to slit her wrists. We wrestled the knife away from her and I held her down until the police arrived. Shame on me, huh?

I am sorry to hear that, I didn't mean anything negative by it, I'm just saying that suicide it is a medical/mental health issue not a public saftey issue. I have no problem with them going out to do a well fair check but busting in the door because no one answered it is a little far fetched to me. Where do we draw the line.

 

[Beau]

Not sure if I would call the cops or not. It may depend on the quality of the firearms in the estate sale.

Glad I'm not the only insensitive bastard here. My first thought was who gets the guns when they die.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

I am sorry to hear that, I didn't mean anything negative by it, I'm just saying that suicide it is a medical/mental health issue not a public saftey issue. I have no problem with them going out to do a well fair check but busting in the door because no one answered it is a little far fetched to me. Where do we draw the line.

I busted in many a door on welfare checks. It is both legal and justified, under the "exigent circumstances" exception to the 4th Amendment.

Whether or not a LEO busts down a door depends on the details of the call. Many of the times that I did so was in the "investigate an elderly person not seen for several days" scenario. When you get there you ask questions. How old is this person? What the state of their health? Could they be in the hospital? Would they take a trip without telling you? Do they drive a car? Is the car here?

The bottom line is, what is the probability that this old person is lying in there injured and helpless? If the probability is high, you break in. I defy any of the LEO-haters to make a case that I had no right to do this.

I broke into homes where it turned out their wasn't a soul there...false alarm. The city solicitor paid for the damage I did. Better to bust a hundred doors and find nothing than have one grandma lay on her floor and die because I didn't have the balls to take action. Did I see things that weren't exactly legal? Could be. But I was there for a welfare check and therefore such things were invisible to me. In my day we played fair.

Suicide threats also fall under the exigent circumstances exception. At least in my department such cases were considered a medical issue. Ohio has a "state mental hold" permitting LEOs to take into custody any person who, due to mental issues, is a threat to himself or others. If you have to break the guy's door down to apprehend him, you do it. Does a person have a legal right to threaten his own life? I have no answer to that. But when I wore a badge my job was to apprehend such people and deliver to them to competent medical care, and that's what I did.

Despite some of the stupid accusations made here, NO LEO wants to do this. Breaking into a residence by force is a very perilous situation, as noted in the case about the trailer where the guy was waiting with a gun. No LEO breaks into someone's home using a welfare check as an "excuse" just to get into someone's home and look around. My greatest fear was that the person I was supposed to be investigating, who was maybe a sound sleeper, or half-drunk or whatever and didn't hear my efforts to rouse him would jump out with a gun to investigate, quite understandably, who the hell was breaking in his house. It scared the hell out of me.

But you do it, because if you don't a person who desperately needs your help might die.

 

[femurphy77]

"please feel free to get the laws changed so that LE is not held liable when your loved one offs themselves."

Your reply to my post has nothing to do with this. Again please cite the specific law which holds police liable when our loved one's off themselves. There is no "Constitutional" duty per USSC.


Yes anyone can be sued for anything.

I could sue you for writing that post (providing it doesn't get tossed out as frivolous), so why don't you just spare yourself the time, effort, money, stress, etc. of defending against a frivolous lawsuit by sending me a hundred bucks.

I think I am being more than reasonable allowed you to settle out of court like this for such a low amount, especially considering all the time, effort, money, stress, etc, I am saving you by allowing you to do so.

Somebodys' taking something way too personal. I am aware that leo doesn't have any requirement to protect anothers life, I've informed people of that on a couple of ocassions to their incredulous disbelief. My point was simply that distraught family members in their grasp for finding somebody to place blame on will easily find a lawyer willing to take their money in the hopes of "making somebody pay".

And in lieu of $100 why don't I just drink a beer tonight in your honor?

 

[thebishopp]

Somebodys' taking something way too personal. I am aware that leo doesn't have any requirement to protect anothers life, I've informed people of that on a couple of ocassions to their incredulous disbelief. My point was simply that distraught family members in their grasp for finding somebody to place blame on will easily find a lawyer willing to take their money in the hopes of "making somebody pay".

And in lieu of $100 why don't I just drink a beer tonight in your honor?

lol no I'm not taking it personal. I attempted to give a ridiculous scenario of why the "you can be sued for anything" argument is so ridiculous.

Make it something a bit stronger

 

[Denny347]

I busted in many a door on welfare checks. It is both legal and justified, under the "exigent circumstances" exception to the 4th Amendment.

Whether or not a LEO busts down a door depends on the details of the call. Many of the times that I did so was in the "investigate an elderly person not seen for several days" scenario. When you get there you ask questions. How old is this person? What the state of their health? Could they be in the hospital? Would they take a trip without telling you? Do they drive a car? Is the car here?

The bottom line is, what is the probability that this old person is lying in there injured and helpless? If the probability is high, you break in. I defy any of the LEO-haters to make a case that I had no right to do this.

I broke into homes where it turned out their wasn't a soul there...false alarm. The city solicitor paid for the damage I did. Better to bust a hundred doors and find nothing than have one grandma lay on her floor and die because I didn't have the balls to take action. Did I see things that weren't exactly legal? Could be. But I was there for a welfare check and therefore such things were invisible to me. In my day we played fair.

Suicide threats also fall under the exigent circumstances exception. At least in my department such cases were considered a medical issue. Ohio has a "state mental hold" permitting LEOs to take into custody any person who, due to mental issues, is a threat to himself or others. If you have to break the guy's door down to apprehend him, you do it. Does a person have a legal right to threaten his own life? I have no answer to that. But when I wore a badge my job was to apprehend such people and deliver to them to competent medical care, and that's what I did.

Despite some of the stupid accusations made here, NO LEO wants to do this. Breaking into a residence by force is a very perilous situation, as noted in the case about the trailer where the guy was waiting with a gun. No LEO breaks into someone's home using a welfare check as an "excuse" just to get into someone's home and look around. My greatest fear was that the person I was supposed to be investigating, who was maybe a sound sleeper, or half-drunk or whatever and didn't hear my efforts to rouse him would jump out with a gun to investigate, quite understandably, who the hell was breaking in his house. It scared the hell out of me.

But you do it, because if you don't a person who desperately needs your help might die.

Not much I could say to add to this. Spot on.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I busted in many a door on welfare checks. It is both legal and justified, under the "exigent circumstances" exception to the 4th Amendment.

Whether or not a LEO busts down a door depends on the details of the call. Many of the times that I did so was in the "investigate an elderly person not seen for several days" scenario. When you get there you ask questions. How old is this person? What the state of their health? Could they be in the hospital? Would they take a trip without telling you? Do they drive a car? Is the car here?

The bottom line is, what is the probability that this old person is lying in there injured and helpless? If the probability is high, you break in. I defy any of the LEO-haters to make a case that I had no right to do this.

I broke into homes where it turned out their wasn't a soul there...false alarm. The city solicitor paid for the damage I did. Better to bust a hundred doors and find nothing than have one grandma lay on her floor and die because I didn't have the balls to take action. Did I see things that weren't exactly legal? Could be. But I was there for a welfare check and therefore such things were invisible to me. In my day we played fair.

Suicide threats also fall under the exigent circumstances exception. At least in my department such cases were considered a medical issue. Ohio has a "state mental hold" permitting LEOs to take into custody any person who, due to mental issues, is a threat to himself or others. If you have to break the guy's door down to apprehend him, you do it. Does a person have a legal right to threaten his own life? I have no answer to that. But when I wore a badge my job was to apprehend such people and deliver to them to competent medical care, and that's what I did.

Despite some of the stupid accusations made here, NO LEO wants to do this. Breaking into a residence by force is a very perilous situation, as noted in the case about the trailer where the guy was waiting with a gun. No LEO breaks into someone's home using a welfare check as an "excuse" just to get into someone's home and look around. My greatest fear was that the person I was supposed to be investigating, who was maybe a sound sleeper, or half-drunk or whatever and didn't hear my efforts to rouse him would jump out with a gun to investigate, quite understandably, who the hell was breaking in his house. It scared the hell out of me.

But you do it, because if you don't a person who desperately needs your help might die.

My mom needed this type of help once in her later years. Fortunately it was a neighbor with a key rather than a LEO. But still...in that circumstance, I would have had no problem if it had been an officer coming to her aid as you describe, Liberty.

 

[j706]

More than a few agency's are revamping sop's since the new shoot the police law. It is probable that people in need will die over this. Right now a suicidal armed person that is barricaded and not threatening others is left to do whatever they decide. We are leaving. Just the way it is. Want to shoot yourself? Knock yourself out because I could care less.

You are going to see more and more agency's go to this line of thinking.