Point shooting with wax bullets is good training

[Serial Crusher]

If it's as difficult for you to understand as you act I suggest you put the gun away and carry a bat. Would you point swing that or "aim" it and at what distance? Is there a rule for something like that? What if he had a knife? What if it's a big knife?

Better yet put some common sense in your pocket first, then pick up the bat.

The entire concept is God awful ignorant. Do you people ever actually fire a gun? IF THE BAD GUY IS CLOSE ENOUGH YOU DON'T NEED TO AIM TO HIT HIM THEN PULL THE FRIGGING TRIGGER. IF YOU CAN'T THEN AIM IT! IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEY GET YOUR GUN OUT AND SHOOT IT ONCE IN A WHILE.

Throw the stupid advice books and magazines on the ground in front of you, draw and shoot it. That's about all they are good for and you may actually learn what you need to know to use that iron you are packing around.

You don't need years of expirience for that. You need about an ounce of common sense.

Wow... That's a serious backlash considering you came into a thread and responded to someone who was responding to a third person...

Point shooting is not good training, regardless of whether it's with wax bullets or lead ones.

This kind of logic comes from people who are Jeff Cooper or Jim Cirillo addicts. Both of these writers advocated the front site as a focal point, not bullseye style shooting, but point shooting with a different focal point. Considering Cooper spent most of his life trying to tear down Rex Applegate and W. E. Fairbairn, it doesn't seem like it would be but it is. With this method, or other point shooting.

Both you, Jack, and downzero seem to be senselessly opposed to any sort of point shooting training, based on the contention that the muzzle is either touching the target or you are making a perfect sight picture and going by the numbers. The contention of many writers and the most vocal opponents of point shooting is that in the stress of a firefight you would be incapable of the gross motor skills involved in point shooting, but would be perfectly capable of making a beautiful sight picture and exercising great trigger control.

Unless I missed the point and all the capital letters were about something else, why would point shooting training be a bad thing? It is actually pretty difficult to understand what you're driving at, Jack. You made a huge blanket statement, that I can only assume means you think no one who has posted in this thread ever actually get trigger time. So you're either saying that point shooting is a waste of time because it is so easy, or that it's a waste of time because it's what you believe to be poor technique.

With point shooting training you are not only increasing the accuracy with which you can point shoot, but also the range at which you can point shoot accurately. Maybe some people can only point shoot a pile of magazines at their feet, in that case they may want to get better at it....

 

[Orsetto Lavatore]

The entire concept is God awful ignorant. Do you people ever actually fire a gun? ...You don't need years of expirience
(?) for that. You need about an ounce of common sense.

Looking back through your posts, it seems you can not help but insult the intelligence of others in every thread you visit... Your posts are sloppy and riddled with errors, belying the fervor with which you compose your diatribes.

This debate of methods (Applegate Vs. Cooper) is a timeless talking point in the gun community. Each position has its strengths; as such you must weigh them against your own personal needs, rather than foolishly attack others for their preference.

Exempli Gratia - An individual must weight the costs and benefits of Applegates high speed but mediocre accuracy with Coopers slower acquisition, but increased accuracy.

This is a forum for adults to speak of serious matters: not a playground for a juveniles rage.

 

[jboritzki]

Out of curiosity, did the primer give up enough gas to actually recock the gun?

No, it's a single shot thing unless you have a revolver.

 

[jboritzki]

Point shooting is not good training, regardless of whether it's with wax bullets or lead ones.

I completely disagree. You can prefer aiming or point shooting, but any kind of shooting is good training.

 

[jboritzki]

If the bad guys is so close you don't have time to bring the gun up to eye level to aim then the BG should be close enough to contact shoot, actually pressing the gun against the BG before pulling the trigger, if he isn't that close you have time to bring the gun to eye level and aim. Even Bill Jordan, one of the best point shooters in the world stated it was mostly a trick and not something he would want to hang his life on.

My experience with both wax and rubber bullets require the flash hole to be drilled out to prevent the primer from backing out of the case and locking up a revolver.

I was sitting in my truck with my foot depressing the clutch and the brake and in 1st gear when a tall hooded guy put his baseball bat through the door glass of my drivers side door. The bat hit me in the mouth and brought the glass into my face and eyes, cutting me pretty bad. Glass got into my eyeballs and cut them too. For some reason I didn't know that eyeballs could bleed, but they can and it looked like trying to see through a glass of red water. I could see but everything was very blurry and there was no sharp detail.

Now Luckily, my foot did not slip off the clutch and kill the engine. I was able to floor the gas and drop the clutch and could see well enough to find some people on break at the Kroger store that called 911 for me. I was not armed that night, so if my foot had slipped, the guy that was continuing to swing as hard as he could at my head, would have killed me.

Here is why I like the idea of point shooting. If the bat impact had caused my foot to slip and kill the engine and I was armed, I would have had to shoot at him at that point, or just let him hit me. If I had to shoot, I could not have seen the sights. He was probably just out of my reach, but I would not have wanted to put the gun out the window to try to contact him or even to aim if I had been able to see because the bat was repeatedly being swung into the window area. He could have hit my gun or arm or hand and disarmed me. I would have had to point shoot from an awkward position because he was beside and slightly behind me. Because I had practiced point shooting so much I believe I could have hit him.

Luckily, I was able to get away especially since I was not armed that night. I know other attacks are different that what happened to me, but I believe that being able to aim and to point shoot is important since none of us can ever know how or when bad things will happen.

I have noticed that the primer does back out a little sometimes, but I've never drilled out the primer hole. I will try that though.

 

[TheCapulet]

I'm still surprised you guys haven't learned to ignore Jack Ryan. That's the common sense he's talking about; enough common sense to disregard anything he says.

 

[SSGSAD]

I first used wax bullets, in 1979-80, in Base Housing, in my garage,
then went to the plastic bullets. I enjoyed, shooting, for the price of a
primer, shot at a cardboard box. Not a lot of noise, wore hearing protection, eye protection, had a blast....

 

[Jack Ryan]

Both you, Jack, and downzero seem to be senselessly opposed to any sort of point shooting training, based on the contention that the muzzle is either touching the target or you are making a perfect sight picture and going by the numbers...

I'm not opposed to it at all. I do it all the time. In fact I've recently, last month or so, become even more enthusiastic about than ever before. People dis those TV shows and I agree they are pretty corny but I've learned a couple tricks from watching Top Shot and that Deadliest Weapon show. I guess it's possible the same thing could be gained from a magazine as I've gained from those shows.

It wasn't any technical tip or training exercise or "expert's" comment. It was the motivation to get out a gun and set up a target scenario I'd not tried before for what ever reason doesn't matter. What matters is I tried something, found it took a particular skill or offered a simulation of a specific situation and was motivated to try it. Practice it until I could accomplish what I wanted.

"Point shooting" is one of those skills I've improved dramaticly the last couple weeks. Not from reading any advice columnist, from DOING IT. That is my point, DOING IT.

DOING IT, makes it painfully obvious there can be no rule, no one can tell you when or where to do it. YOU TRY IT, you learn YOUR OWN CAPABILITY, you improve it or you adapt to it.

It becomes obvious to you what your current ability level is and it becomes obvious how ridiculously absurd any kind of "under 21 feet or over 15 feet..." kind of comment really is. This is the area of the thread and "expert" books that irritate me. Blanket statements and "rules" giving the impression that, "well now you've read this you know what you need to know. Push that 10 foot ruler around in front of you when ever you have a gun on and you are good to go now. If this then this, if that then that."

I like the wax bullets practicing in a basement if it works as stated and is used with a back stop that would be safe if a live round were fired in to it. Like the laze in the chamber even better for practice under the same circumstances. I only like them when used as a secondary practice option and only when backed up with live fire to confirm the results in as near actually shooting conditions as possible to the scenario you are trying to simulate.

I don't like implications or theoretical scenarios like "What would you do if he's running with a knife and doing back flips spinning at a 45 degree angle..." and then tweaking the situation every other comment to make it fit what a poster wants to do.

They are ridiculous. What is any one going to do take a knife in the chest because well Cooper said..., you are going to pull the trigger, I'm going to pull the trigger. I'm going to point, aim, shoot, throw, and then kick or head butt or any thing else that comes to mind. Reading what some slick paper expert said isn't going to be foremost in my thoughts or any one else's in a fire fight or any other fight of any kind.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Exempli Gratia - An individual must weight the costs and benefits of Applegates high speed but mediocre accuracy with Coopers slower acquisition, but increased accuracy.

This is a forum for adults to speak of serious matters: not a playground for a juveniles rage.

If it takes all that for you to decide to pull the trigger you'll never get the chance. A person who chooses to carry a gun would spend their time better shooting it and deciding these things for their self than reading about it and letting people they've never met tell them what to do.

 

[Serial Crusher]

Well I guess I misunderstood. And I guess, once again, we agree on some strange level There are no hard and fast rules that I've found anywhere, and you definitely have to try to find what works for you. I made my own comments of 30 yards versus 30 feet only as an example, and what I feel is a realistic expectation based on my own shooting.

Just like jboritzki talked about in his post, vision has always been a concern for me, I wear glasses, and am nearly blind without them. I've also thought of moving targets with the bullseye methodology, and it just doesn't seem feasible. Threads like this arouse my ire because it seems like point shooting is the most overlooked or denied portion of the shooting repertoire. People have a habit of wrongfully equating point shooting with spray and pray.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Well I guess I misunderstood. And I guess, once again, we agree on some strange level There are no hard and fast rules that I've found anywhere, and you definitely have to try to find what works for you. I made my own comments of 30 yards versus 30 feet only as an example, and what I feel is a realistic expectation based on my own shooting.

Just like jboritzki talked about in his post, vision has always been a concern for me, I wear glasses, and am nearly blind without them. I've also thought of moving targets with the bullseye methodology, and it just doesn't seem feasible. Threads like this arouse my ire because it seems like point shooting is the most overlooked or denied portion of the shooting repertoire. People have a habit of wrongfully equating point shooting with spray and pray.

Obviously I've been known to have my "off" days. Especially if I've been particularly annoyed at something and can be harsh where it's not warranted but it will still be what I believe to be true regardless of how I choose to state it at the time.

If yer the lone ranger on the vision thing then I must be Tonto brother. Point shooting may or may not be spray and pray depending on the skill and knowledge of the shooter. The less they've done one the more it is the other.

Those swinging targets and pop can challenges from Top Shot will let you know in a real hurry which is which. If you want to really have some fun then combine the two and try shooting swinging pop cans filled with water. Even my wife thought that was fun to shoot those.

I like to swing 6 cans, all swinging at different direction and some in circles and then shoot them with my 22 single six. Draw shoot one can, reholster, and draw and shoot the next. You get six, first shot, results and it's pretty humbling at first but it can get your head swelled a little after a few days of doing it.

I think it's a pretty fair representation of six gang members working a vic in a lonely place. They won't be standing still in one spot, they'll be moving around looking for an opening, taunting and getting behind you. A pop can is only slightly larger than a human heart shot. If you are hitting those you can bet pretty safely that shot was good enough to stop an attacker at that distance given the time to make that shot. Getting faster on the cans will equate to faster on moving humans and you will quickly learn what takes a point and what takes deliberate aim. What ever Jeff Cooper says will be the last thing on your mind.

 

[arma73]

I like the laser snap caps to improve technique with handling your weapon.
I have heard of the bee's wax ammo before and have heard that this was away to just pass long winter days,not so much for training.