Permanently attaching suppresors

[turnerdye1]

I am currently looking into having my patrol rifle built within the next year. But I have a question about attaching the suppressor to prevent from having to pay for the SBR stamp.

What I am looking into getting is a 10.5" 300 Blackout barrel and then running a kestrel 308 suppressor or any other take down compatible suppressor. Now if I want to permanently attach that can to my barrel so I just have to pay for one tax stamp, is it still legal if I take apart the can for cleaning?

I plan on running my a 12" free float hand guard over my barre and part of the suppressor. With the kestrel 308; It should work out for the threads of the can to be right at the end of the hand guard for easy take down.

Like I said this isn't an urgent issue but like to have my ducks in a row before dropping 2-3k on a rifle.

 

[menzzer37]

This concept probably won't work with a k-baffle style can. Once you remove the outer tube, the gun is then under 16" as the baffles are not fixed. With a welded monocore, the overall length of the barrel structure could be past the 16" and could not be taken down under that length. If you can take parts off and make it under 16", it's still an SBR.

 

[ctbreitwieser]

Do what you want, but id bet my lifes paychecks that at some point, you'll be kicking yourself in the ass for not just SBRing it. Your spending that much already, shuck out the extra $200 and do it right. You'll be happier in the long run.

 

[2tonic]

Turnerdye, you'll need to use a can that opens from the muzzle end, and won't drop your barrel length below 16" with the end-cap removed.

I'm currently building the same type of project with a Tactical Innovations TAC-16 can and a 10.5" CMMG nitrided barrel in 5.56mm (have two SBR's in my trust, didn't feel the need to stamp this one as it's a thread-on can).

Once you weld, silver solder, or blind pin the can to the barrel, it needs to exceed 16" from the closed bolt face to the end of the can. You can unscrew the end-cap and remove the baffles for cleaning, but that length has to stay above 16" to avoid a second stamp.

 

[amafrank]

I've done a couple suppressors for 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf using a can pinned to the barrel with a front endcap thats removeable. No real need to clean baffles in these things so a completely welded can wouldn't be bad either. On the other hand you can drop some weight by removing the baffles and endcap.

Frank

 

[turnerdye1]

Alright thanks guys! I'll probably just end up spending the extra cash and going the SBR route.

Can anybody explain what would be better and why 8.5" or 10.5" while running subs and supers? Also what lightweight cans are 800 and under?

I've done a couple suppressors for 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf using a can pinned to the barrel with a front endcap thats removeable. No real need to clean baffles in these things so a completely welded can wouldn't be bad either. On the other hand you can drop some weight by removing the baffles and endcap.

Frank

Incase I don't go the SBR route what cans are lightweight and only have the removable endcap?

 

[beeeman]

Can anybody explain what would be better and why 8.5" or 10.5" while running subs and supers?

300blk is optimized for a 9 inch barrel, from the developer's website 300 AAC BLACKOUT (300BLK):

Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter.

 

[in812]

yea "optimized for 9" bbl" maybe for supers
but if you want it super quiet you need 16 " bbl been down that road
spent a lot of time and money trying every powder,weight,bullet combo I could find
none of them are very quiet in a 9" BBL I ended up trading the 9" bbl for 16"
lots of claims on this caliber But IMO it's not what it hyped up to be

 

[turnerdye1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgKjbySsAik

300blk is optimized for a 9 inch barrel, from the developer's website 300 AAC BLACKOUT (300BLK):

Awesome thank you! I'll be checking that out here shortly to do a bit more research. I've been busy at work here lately to completely check out that website. Could anyone tell me if that site or another site has any subsonic ballistic charts, as for as penetration and basically knockdown power?

yea "optimized for 9" bbl" maybe for supers
but if you want it super quiet you need 16 " bbl been down that road
spent a lot of time and money trying every powder,weight,bullet combo I could find
none of them are very quiet in a 9" BBL I ended up trading the 9" bbl for 16"
lots of claims on this caliber But IMO it's not what it hyped up to be

I'm not trying to get this thing ninja quiet. Like I said this thing will be my patrol rifle and I just want something hearing safe so I don't blow out my ears in case I ever have to deploy this weapon. What combo did you find to work out best for supers and subs? Just curious

 

[rvb]

yea "optimized for 9" bbl" maybe for supers
but if you want it super quiet you need 16 " bbl been down that road
spent a lot of time and money trying every powder,weight,bullet combo I could find
none of them are very quiet in a 9" BBL I ended up trading the 9" bbl for 16"
lots of claims on this caliber But IMO it's not what it hyped up to be

no .300blk expert, but I think that "optimized for 9" bbl" statement pertains to keeping the current factory subsonic ammo offerings from going supersonic. Obviously if you are loading your own, those issues dont apply since you can load for the required velocity out of the longer barrel, and having a longer barrel to reduce muzzle pressures as much as possible will make it quieter.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

attaching the suppressor to prevent from having to pay for the SBR stamp.

Are you able to do the work yourself to perm attach, or would you be hiring it out? If hiring it out, will you have to ship it? Once you pay for those services, you probably wont be too far from the $200 for another stamp.

I'm putting a rifle together and wanted it short so oal w/ a silencer isn't unweildy. I thought about perm attaching a flashhider/mount to get to 16," but by the time I paid to do it, then realized I'd have to pay to do it again AND buy a new flashhider/mount if I rebarrel down the road (or if I decided to change handguards, etc), I decided it was easier/cheaper in the long run to file the form 1.

I am currently looking into having my patrol rifle built

If this is a work gun, that will spend most of it's time rattling around in a patrol car, you might consider perm attaching, or getting a can with a QD mount for other reasons... I'd be slightly concerned that the rifle that's spent several weeks just getting vibrated/shaken in the car could have a loose can when you grabbed it to save your or someone else's life.... That's one of the benefits of a QD system vs simple threads, IMO, is they dont back off unless you want them too... maybe not too likely, I dunno, (never driven around for weeks w/ my gun locked to the chassis of the car) but something I would consider if in your shoes....

-rvb

What I am looking into getting is a 10.5" 300 Blackout barrel ... a 12" free float hand guard ... With the kestrel 308; It should work out for the threads of the can to be right at the end of the hand guard for easy take down.

You HGs will only cover ~1.5" of the silencer... the endcap threads* (I assume that's what you mean) will be quite a bit in front of the HGs still. You would have to go w/ an extended ~15" HG to cover more of the can.

-IF- you go the route of not perm attaching, I would offer some other advice. I have a setup w/ HGs that covers a silencer (9mm). I never feel comfortable shooting w/o the silencer because it would be so easy to get a finger in front of the muzzle (esp since it has carbine-length HGs). So IF you ever think you would want to shoot w/o the silencer (training, etc), don't tuck the muzzle under the HGs.

*eta: just looked this can up and see that it comes apart in the middle... now I understand...

-rvb

 

[turnerdye1]

no .300blk expert, but I think that "optimized for 9" bbl" statement pertains to keeping the current factory subsonic ammo offerings from going supersonic. Obviously if you are loading your own, those issues dont apply since you can load for the required velocity out of the longer barrel, and having a longer barrel to reduce muzzle pressures as much as possible will make it quieter.

-rvb

See I can load my own for training and practicing but I cant carry what I practice with because it has to be factory loads for legal reasons.

If this is a work gun, that will spend most of it's time rattling around in a patrol car, you might consider perm attaching, or getting a can with a QD mount for other reasons... I'd be slightly concerned that the rifle that's spent several weeks just getting vibrated/shaken in the car could have a loose can when you grabbed it to save your or someone else's life.... That's one of the benefits of a QD system vs simple threads, IMO, is they dont back off unless you want them too... maybe not too likely, I dunno, (never driven around for weeks w/ my gun locked to the chassis of the car) but something I would consider if in your shoes....

-rvb

I've never thought about that before and it brings up a good point! Now that you mention it I may go QD with the SBR route. There are just too many options to even consider right now lol. It's overwhelming... I want to be able to shoot unsuppressed and suppressed without have to worry about shooting my hand. If I can permantely attach a can that unscrews for the end cap I would be okay because it was be 16" and permantely attatched. Or I could go QD and the SBR route but would have to get a much longer FF rail to prevent my hand going out too far. I'm worried about that though because I dont think I'll like the muzzle blast alone hitting my hands either. So as of right now the permantely attaching a suppressor with a detachable endcap sounds like what I'm wanting.

 

[ryknoll3]

yea "optimized for 9" bbl" maybe for supers
but if you want it super quiet you need 16 " bbl been down that road
spent a lot of time and money trying every powder,weight,bullet combo I could find
none of them are very quiet in a 9" BBL I ended up trading the 9" bbl for 16"
lots of claims on this caliber But IMO it's not what it hyped up to be

Are you using a suppressor? 300 BLK was never OFFICIALLY claimed as quiet in unsuppressed rifles. It was developed by AAC with use with suppressors in mind.

The "optimized for 9" bbl" statement is simply referring to ballistics. In most rifle calibers, they are designed for longer (20-22"+) barrels. When you shoot them in a short barrel, you lose a LOT of velocity. (M193 5.56x45 ammo loses about 500 fps from a 20" barrel to a 10" barrel)

300 BLK was designed to be most efficient at around 9" of barrel length. You will get increases in velocity with longer barrels, but it's not much. The cartridge was designed to be used in short barrels and with suppressors.

I have a 10" barrel that I shoot subsonic rounds through my 9mm pistol can. It is VERY quiet. Quieter than my 9mm pistol with subsonic rounds.

 

[ryknoll3]

See I can load my own for training and practicing but I cant carry what I practice with because it has to be factory loads for legal reasons.



I've never thought about that before and it brings up a good point! Now that you mention it I may go QD with the SBR route. There are just too many options to even consider right now lol. It's overwhelming... I want to be able to shoot unsuppressed and suppressed without have to worry about shooting my hand. If I can permantely attach a can that unscrews for the end cap I would be okay because it was be 16" and permantely attatched. Or I could go QD and the SBR route but would have to get a much longer FF rail to prevent my hand going out too far. I'm worried about that though because I dont think I'll like the muzzle blast alone hitting my hands either. So as of right now the permantely attaching a suppressor with a detachable endcap sounds like what I'm wanting.

I really don't think you'll be happy with a permamently attached suppressor. Besides, it almost always voids the mfg's warranty to permanently attach it.

 

[in812]

9" bbl setup used a pistol gas system and was picky on what ammo would function and lock the bolt back ! (tried several buffers, springs and even opening the gas port in the end still not reliable enough for me ) Rem OTM factory loads would do it but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it seamed weak and only 950 fps . hand loads H 4198 worked best the quietest was H110 but again had reliability issues
16" setup uses car gas system and is a lot more reliable with hand loaded subs and factory Rem OTM but still unsure mainly from all the trouble with the 9" bbl
I never tested supers was not interested in that if I wanted supers I'd go with a proven reliable caliber 308 30-06 338 that I know can get the job done
Over all I wish I would went with 458 socom ! but I bought into the hype and mag capacity + std bolt and upper ! looking back military chose 458 socom for a reason
IMO 300 blk is a great range toy or hunting cal but I WOULD NOT TRUST MY LIFE TO IT ! would be the last gun I would grab

I get the opposite with 9mm can on 300 blk the 9mm setup is quieter than the 300 blk both are right at 1050fps avg. (away from the gun the action noise is about the same on both) and the 9mm setup is reliable

anyone that thinks 300blk is the latest greatest thing want to trade me 458 upper for my latest and greatest thing ! LOL!

 

[ryknoll3]

Well, I have a Noveske 10" barrel I put on an upper, and I've never had any trouble cycling any factory super or subsonic loads. It partially depends on the barrel, as some manufacturers SPECIFICALLY state that their barrels won't function on subs without a suppressor.

Also, 300 BLK is mainly an AR chambering, and you're not going to get .30-06 or .338 in an AR.

Finally, the military does not use .458 SOCOM. The designer used that name because some of the input he got was from special-ops guys, but it isn't/hasn't ever been part of the military arsenal.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Why not have your upper integrally suppressed? That's what I did, got a 16" integral, no SBR necessary.

Check out SRT Arms. They did mine.
http://www.srtarms.com/

 

[beeeman]

yea "optimized for 9" bbl" maybe for supers

Yeah, sorry I didn't state the obvious.

quietest was H110 but again had reliability issues

H110 IS recommended for supersonics, BUT isn't recommended for subsonic loads, burns too fast...
Per AAC website:

A1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon.

I WOULD NOT TRUST MY LIFE TO IT ! would be the last gun I would grab

Did you try an adjustable gas block? Seems like an easy way to fix your admittedly annoying problem.. Oh yeah, and actually using an appropriate/recommended powder.

 

[in812]

Well, I have a Noveske 10" barrel I put on an upper, and I've never had any trouble cycling any factory super or subsonic loads. It partially depends on the barrel, as some manufacturers SPECIFICALLY state that their barrels won't function on subs without a suppressor.

tried 2 bbls first was AAC 9" 2nd was Novenske 10"

Did you try an adjustable gas block? Seems like an easy way to fix your admittedly annoying problem.. Oh yeah, and actually using an appropriate/recommended powder.

did you read tried opening the port and that didn't work ? it's not over gassing and powder I tried all the "approved" powders AND several others people have had luck with

 

[rvb]

-IF- you go the route of not perm attaching, I would offer some other advice. I have a setup w/ HGs that covers a silencer (9mm). I never feel comfortable shooting w/o the silencer because it would be so easy to get a finger in front of the muzzle (esp since it has carbine-length HGs). So IF you ever think you would want to shoot w/o the silencer (training, etc), don't tuck the muzzle under the HGs.

Not sure if this would happen w/o that particular muzzle device (if it works as a comp or brake to direct gases out), but I thought of your thread when I read this. I've not had any kids of problems w/ my 9mm, but pressures are so much lower and w/0 the silencer it is a bare muzzle...

I would think a bare muzzle wouldnt see the lateral pressures needed, but IDK.

I blew up my rail - M4Carbine.net Forums

-rvb