Our Nation’s Teachers Are Hustling to Survive

[bobzilla]

https://education.costhelper.com/teaching-certificate.html
Here the average cost of a bachelor's degree for instate residents is $30,400, and room/board another $34k.

$64k in student loans (assuming you had nothing to pay and chose to live on campus for 4 years) would run about $617/ month. Even at the starting pay of $42k/year, bring home after taxes will be about $3k/ month. Apartment at $800, loan at 617, utilities a 150, phone at 75 puts you at $1600. That leaves $1400 per month, or $350 week. If you can't survive on that you have some serious spending issues.

 

[bobzilla]

Wow. Got really quiet in here. Interesting.

 

[dudley0]

Guess I will comment a little. Have three people in my family that are in the public sector.

None of them tries to indoctrinate students in anything. None of them agree with all the crap the state pushes. None of them enjoys dealing with helicopter parents or absentee parents.

They all complain about wages, but mostly because they all want to make more money (as does almost every person earning a wage). They all know what they were getting into when they signed on. They all work for different corporations now. None of them is in the union now.

It gets frustrating when I read all the hate that people have toward teachers in the public systems. Not sure if it is one bad apple ruins them all or media hype or maybe things at the mega schools are different, but the majority of the crap that is getting spewed here about teachers is just that... crap.

Good, bad or indifferent, public schools are here and we have to deal with that. If the gov would step back and let the systems do what needs to be done maybe people wouldn't bitch as much. Then again, they probably would because it seems to be human nature.

I disagree with a lot of what the school systems do, but to blame the teachers is as bad as blaming the cop that stops you for speeding, or the cashier that rings up ever more expensive food. I am not saying there are not some teachers that need a good attitude adjustment. I know of some. I also know that if you have a good team they weed the bad ones out. Just like it should be.

I put my two kids thru college. Neither one started out wanting to be a teacher. One was drawn towards it early on. The other fell into an admin spot at a school and then decided to step into teaching. They both love the kids but hate the silly rules. Neither has school debt, so that helps.

I know two things for certain. I am neither a teacher or care giver. The people that do those things, and do them well, deserve to get rewarded for that.

 

[phylodog]

No hate for teachers here but I also don't read articles like the one above and get taken for an emotional ride like the author is trying to provide. This is 2022, everyone is a victim of something or someone and therefore deserves empathy and hugs.

No one has a perfect job, I've known very few police officers who didn't work an average of 60-80 hours a week minimum working their shifts and part time gigs. Could they "survive" on their salary alone, sure but that isn't going to provide the lifestyle most want. Many, if not most firemen treat their firefighting as a part time job, same thing. I've known at least a dozen police officers who were also real estate agents.

Public sector jobs aren't going to make anyone rich (other than politicians of course). This isn't new information. One of the things I liked early in my LE career was how easily I could pick up part time work. When you're working some 2nd or 3rd shift you can spend your free time by yourself while your family is out working or going to school.

This type of thing is nothing more than thinly veiled propaganda to inch people closer to accepting socialism. "Oh look at how hard our poor __________ have to work in our current society, it just isn't right. If we all just give in to socialism everything and everyone will be perfectly equal and so much happier."

 

[ditcherman]

Wow. Got really quiet in here. Interesting.

Why should anyone bother trying to change your mind when it's obvious you are very sure of what you know and it must apply to everybody? I think your wife is the exception, with her tenure and specialization. I appreciate her service to her students. The societal reward of helping people that just need to learn a little differently than the cookie cutter mold is certainly worth more than the pay that she's taken.

I'm happy to have a conversation but have more pressing things to do than to argue.

I did read your last link and don't know how you came up with the numbers in your post, I didn't see anything that specific esp. for Indiana, concerning college costs. I'd think it would be 100k absolute minimum, but whatever, that's kinda splitting hairs, and like I said I only care to argue so much.

I haven't forgotten about my comment to get more retirement formula info for hoosierdoc, just haven't had a chance to have that conversation yet...

 

[ditcherman]

No hate for teachers here but I also don't read articles like the one above and get taken for an emotional ride like the author is trying to provide. This is 2022, everyone is a victim of something or someone and therefore deserves empathy and hugs.

No one has a perfect job, I've known very few police officers who didn't work an average of 60-80 hours a week minimum working their shifts and part time gigs. Could they "survive" on their salary alone, sure but that isn't going to provide the lifestyle most want. Many, if not most firemen treat their firefighting as a part time job, same thing. I've known at least a dozen police officers who were also real estate agents.

Public sector jobs aren't going to make anyone rich (other than politicians of course). This isn't new information. One of the things I liked early in my LE career was how easily I could pick up part time work. When you're working some 2nd or 3rd shift you can spend your free time by yourself while your family is out working or going to school.

This type of thing is nothing more than thinly veiled propaganda to inch people closer to accepting socialism. "Oh look at how hard our poor __________ have to work in our current society, it just isn't right. If we all just give in to socialism everything and everyone will be perfectly equal and so much happier."

You've hit on something important to me as of late, "emotional ride like the author is trying to provide. This is 2022, everyone is a victim of something"

To keep a clear head in this day and age, we must cut through the clutter of victimization salesmanship. We need to ignore 90% of what we hear.

 

[phylodog]

We need to ignore 90% of what we hear.

If people started doing that and actually utilizing their brains we would be in an entirely different situation as a country.

 

[bobzilla]

TRF is based on the highest 5 years of income while teaching. Teachers must hit the magic number of 85, years teaching plus age. It works out to about 80% of the average of those 5 years divided by 12.

@ditcherman: I provided solid information on average income for teachers and workers in the state, then broke that down to the per hour rate. There is nothing subjective about that. Those are facts. Hard numbers. The fact that you’re ignoring those and basing your arguments in feelings is very telling.

Sorry I didn’t link the source for average instate tuition. I thought you could handle a little googling on your own without spoon feeding it to you.

 

[HoughMade]

https://education.costhelper.com/teaching-certificate.html
Here the average cost of a bachelor's degree for instate residents is $30,400, and room/board another $34k.

$64k in student loans (assuming you had nothing to pay and chose to live on campus for 4 years) would run about $617/ month. Even at the starting pay of $42k/year, bring home after taxes will be about $3k/ month. Apartment at $800, loan at 617, utilities a 150, phone at 75 puts you at $1600. That leaves $1400 per month, or $350 week. If you can't survive on that you have some serious spending issues.

Oof.....I know a lot of people have loans for way more than that for a bachelor degree....but borrowing everything is the worst possible way to pay for a degree.

...but I get your point.

 

[bobzilla]

Oof.....I know a lot of people have loans for way more than that for a bachelor degree....but borrowing everything is the worst possible way to pay for a degree.

...but I get your point.

I know people that spent 7 years getting a bachelors degree they don’t use. Poor choices are still poor choices and not my concern

 

[hoosierdoc]

My son's teacher asked if he had any extra copies of my book she could borrow because she wants to read it

 

[hoosierdaddy1976]

TRF is based on the highest 5 years of income while teaching. Teachers must hit the magic number of 85, years teaching plus age. It works out to about 80% of the average of those 5 years divided by 12.

@ditcherman: I provided solid information on average income for teachers and workers in the state, then broke that down to the per hour rate. There is nothing subjective about that. Those are facts. Hard numbers. The fact that you’re ignoring those and basing your arguments in feelings is very telling.

Sorry I didn’t link the source for average instate tuition. I thought you could handle a little googling on your own without spoon feeding it to you.

Link to starting, average, and maximum teacher salaries for every public school district in Indiana. Not many start at the $42k you mention or average $59k.

Teacher pay: Find the average salary in every Indiana school district | Indy Star Databases | USA TODAY NETWORK

See how different Indiana school districts pay teachers. The salaries are the minimum, maximum and average paid in each district to full-time teachers in the 2017-18 school year.

databases.indystar.com

Link to overview of public universities in Indiana. Not one of them is under $20k for tuition, room and board, and fees.

public universities in indiana - Google Search

I've not went through and done the math with these numbers, but when the salary could be as low as $33k, the loan amount closer to $90k, and the money left to live on has to include transportation costs (car payment, gas, insurance, maintenance and repairs, etc.), property insurance, furnishings and appliances if needed for the apartment, clothing, groceries, etc., that money can get tight without any crazy spending.

None of this is to say that a teacher shouldn't know what he or she is getting into as far as salary and time spent on work outside of school hours. Just as every career, there are pros and cons, and each individual has to decide if a certain job is worth it.

 

[db308]

I ran across this today. Kind of a tangent to the current discussion, in that it's related to the craziness occurring in education.

please delete if it doesn't belong here.


https://notthebee.com/article/check...ent-with-pushing-sexual-ideology-on-your-kids

Why the Left is trying so hard to indoctrinate your kids in modern sexual ideology.​

Josh Daws, the host of The Great Awokening podcast, just dropped a megathread explaining precisely why the Left is trying so hard to indoctrinate your kids in modern sexual ideology.


Hop in here and check out the chilling analysis: (text below copied from the 23 twitter things present in the above link)


I'm seeing a lot of people on the right share this meme. While it may be a strong satirical response to those who get lost in nuance, it fundamentally fails to recognize why the left wants to talk to your kids about sexuality. Let's connect some dots. 1/23


The left doesn't want to diddle kids. They want to create little revolutionaries. To do that they need to sever the bond between students and the parents they believe are raising their children to be hateful bigots. 2/23


In order to sever the bond between parents and their children, the left is using a two-pronged approach. Critical Race Theory and radical gender ideology (properly known as Queer Theory) are not two unrelated sets of ideas. They are two parts of the same strategy. 3/23


CRT is usually the first set of ideas to be introduced. This is often enough to radicalize racial minorities, but it's merely step one for white (or white adjacent) students. 4/23


CRT instills in these students a negative self-identity as they're taught to believe they're recipients of enormous privilege that was stolen from others and that they are complicit in historic and ongoing injustice. In child terms, they're taught to believe they're bad. 5/23


Apart from the shame and guilt, this also gives them a worldview at odds with the one their parents grew up with and are trying to pass on to their kids. Step one is complete. 6/23


Once CRT is done tearing down these kids and leaving them with a negative self-identity, Queer Theory (QT) is introduced and offers them a wide assortment of positive self-identities to choose from. 7/23


Instead of living with the shame and guilt of being a member of the oppressive dominant culture, these students can be celebrated for coming out as gender nonbinary or pansexual. 8/23


In an instant, these kids can trade their negative self-identity and all the accompanying guilt and shame of being an "oppressor" for a positive self-identity as a much-venerated "oppressed" minority. 9/23


At this point, the left desperately wants this new identity to stay at school so it has time to be cemented before the parents find out. In the guise of helping these students, schools withhold this information about their child's new identity from mom and dad. 10/23


Once the parents do find out about their child's new identity it's firmly in place and an adversarial relationship between the child and parents has been manufactured. It takes extraordinarily deft parenting to repair the relationship once it has reached this stage. 11/23


The parents' tendency will be to overreact and push the child further into the arms of the woke radicals who now have the little revolutionary they wanted from the beginning. The bond between parents and child has been severed ending the perpetuation of hate and bigotry. 12/23


The left is determined to replicate this process in as many families as they can using whatever means at their disposal. It's not about diddling kids. It's about capturing the minds of impressionable children. 13/23


Unfortunately, this creates environments where actual predators can thrive. When young children are isolated from their parents, encouraged to adopt different beliefs, and keep secrets from their parents, they are made easy targets for abusers. 14/23


"But my school has Christian teachers and a Christian principal. They couldn't possibly have this agenda." Aha. This is where we turn to @joe_rigney and connect another dot. 15/23


Hear me loud and clear on this. Most teachers love the kids in their classrooms and want only the best for them. They have had their empathy *for* these students weaponized *against* them by leftist activists promoting educational programs that sound nice and caring. 16/23


Highly empathetic teachers are being used to promote this agenda unaware of its insidious purpose. An example: I recently saw a teacher at a Christian school announce that she would no longer be using the words "mom", "dad", or "parents" in her classroom. 17/23


Her reason? She had just read a paper on the importance of making kids from non-traditional families feel included. She suggested replacing "Donuts with Dads" with "Bagels with Buds" or something of the such. 18/23


This sounds like a very considerate thing to do for kids who might feel different because they don't have a dad or live with their grandparents, but its purpose is to subtly chip away at the very idea of the normative nuclear family (a stated goal of the BLM organization.) 19/23


Christians who think that we can embrace the ideas from CRT and reject radical gender ideology need to realize how the former is used to prepare kids to accept the latter. 20/23


These are your kids we're talking about. The left wants them. They would love to sever your bond with them. They think your appeals to childhood innocence are an attempt to force heteronormativity on them. Seriously. They write papers on it. It's not a secret agenda. 21/23


@ConceptualJames has recorded a three-part series walking through this entire agenda by looking at primary sources. I highly recommend all parents invest the time to listen to them. 22/23


The meme I opened this with is an easy response to the insanity we're seeing today, but it's not a great explanation. We should take the time to help people see how nice-sounding programs are being used in the classroom to create little activists and put kids in danger. 23/23


Wow. That was a lot.

But Daws absolutely nails his analysis.

A lot of Christians seem to think they can separate Black Lives Matter and Critical Race Theory and redeem those ideologies as "racial reconciliation" and it simply can't be done.

They are intertwined ideologies working together towards one common goal of indoctrinating children into a Marxist worldview.

Many, under the impression that they are being kind and empathetic, are pushing this ideology completely unwittingly.

Some of us have known this for years and sounded the alarm, but every day it is becoming more and more clear that the Left has truly revolutionary ends in mind.

The time to sound the alarm is now!​

 

[ditcherman]

TRF is based on the highest 5 years of income while teaching. Teachers must hit the magic number of 85, years teaching plus age. It works out to about 80% of the average of those 5 years divided by 12.

@ditcherman: I provided solid information on average income for teachers and workers in the state, then broke that down to the per hour rate. There is nothing subjective about that. Those are facts. Hard numbers. The fact that you’re ignoring those and basing your arguments in feelings is very telling.

Sorry I didn’t link the source for average instate tuition. I thought you could handle a little googling on your own without spoon feeding it to you.

Thank you for explaining the retirement formula.

Yep bro, you got me on the feelings. You figured me out.

I did google further on the cost of a bachelors degree, to back up my claim of 100k minimum, before I spouted that out there. Just because I didn’t link numbers that you wouldn’t have agreed with doesn’t mean I didn’t look.

Put one kid through a private university not that long ago so have a feel for that too. But that was our (his) decision, well over $100k for 4 years and not asking to make it your problem. Graduated debt free, btw. So, it’s actually not a problem.

I’m not ignoring your “facts”. Those are the numbers in your experience.
The numbers in my experience are that my wife works at least 60 hours a week for the first semester or so, and at least 50 for the second, and some over the summer which I can’t really quantify so I won’t even count them - so she ends up working about 2365 hours a year at least, divided into 43k is about 18 bucks an hour, for the hours she works.
If someone translates that $18 an hour is too much to pay our educators, well we’re just going to disagree.

Once again, not asking for your sympathies or making something you imagine to be a problem, yours.
Just the facts, and hard numbers. My only point in all of this is that the general public assumes they work 3/4 of a work day for 3/4 of the year and make the ‘same’ as everyone else and that’s just not the case.

 

[Leo]

Why is borrowing 100% of all expenses and graduating in debt the tax payers fault? I managed to get a few degrees working and paying cash as I went. I never had a working wife until after my last degree. It was rough but better than a debt slave.

Of course doing it that way you don't have time to screw around at a frat house. You also don't have Christmas break to go skiing, or spring break to learn how to trash Miami. You can learn. A person who pays their own way does not waste time with foolish courses, even if they are fun and easy.

Many corporations have a tuition reimbursement program. Fill out the papers, get a B or better, turn in your report card and receipt and now you have money for next semester.

Do you know that there are scholarships that go unclaimed? Sure many of them are only $250, but if you fit the criteria, write a decent essay. and get a check. Many are specialized, for example women in STEM programs, men who have done volunteer work in their community, etc. Many have to do with ethnic groups. I found dozens the last time I was in college but fat middle aged white men did not meet the objectives. In the seventies you had to write letters to find out if anything was available and then submit your application. Now you can find them online.

I think the easy government loan money has proven to be a horrible idea.
1) it is an unsecured loan for large amounts to someone who probably has never learned to live as an adult.
2) It is so easy, people are not careful with the money, and buy BS courses that will never pay off.
3) since the borrowers will buy anything at any price, the schools jack up prices on everything, add lots of expensive extras.

Most colleges spend money like a bimbo who just divorced a rich man.

I am sorry we live in times when Teachers feel financial pressures. I am more sorry that tradesmen, businessmen, merchants, Police officers, Firemen, and pretty much any 24 hour a day 7 day a week occupations are still feeling financial pressures after their main job AND their side job.

 

[bobzilla]

Thank you for explaining the retirement formula.

Yep bro, you got me on the feelings. You figured me out.

I did google further on the cost of a bachelors degree, to back up my claim of 100k minimum, before I spouted that out there. Just because I didn’t link numbers that you wouldn’t have agreed with doesn’t mean I didn’t look.

Put one kid through a private university not that long ago so have a feel for that too. But that was our (his) decision, well over $100k for 4 years and not asking to make it your problem. Graduated debt free, btw. So, it’s actually not a problem.

I’m not ignoring your “facts”. Those are the numbers in your experience.
The numbers in my experience are that my wife works at least 60 hours a week for the first semester or so, and at least 50 for the second, and some over the summer which I can’t really quantify so I won’t even count them - so she ends up working about 2365 hours a year at least, divided into 43k is about 18 bucks an hour, for the hours she works.
If someone translates that $18 an hour is too much to pay our educators, well we’re just going to disagree.

Once again, not asking for your sympathies or making something you imagine to be a problem, yours.
Just the facts, and hard numbers. My only point in all of this is that the general public assumes they work 3/4 of a work day for 3/4 of the year and make the ‘same’ as everyone else and that’s just not the case.

Those numbers aren’t “in my experience”. Those are the average incomes of teachers and non teachers in the state of Indiana. Period. Contracted days are set. Not floating. These aren’t things I made up.

With that said my wife is first in last out. She leaves for work at 5:30 and and gets home at 4:30. Spends an hour in commute. She does IEP’s on the weekends. But she also has more time off. She’s off for 11 days for spring break right now. She had 2 weeks at Christmas every year. She has a week of fall break. She has a 5day thanksgiving weekend and let’s not forget all the other holidays that most people do not get off.

Even more is you’re completely ignoring the added bennies that teachers have that most do not. Retirement, better and cheaper health insurance, 15 sick days and this is the kicker for me 2 weeks of vacation. She uses maybe 2-3 sick days a year and the rest they roll into her other retirement accounts. Yes, they even have a special retirement account ON TOP of the state retirement fund.

Good teachers work hard. They are also taken as at of by ****** parents and bad districts. But they are not under paid. The hard numbers do not support that.

 

[ditcherman]

Those numbers aren’t “in my experience”. Those are the average incomes of teachers and non teachers in the state of Indiana. Period. Contracted days are set. Not floating. These aren’t things I made up.

With that said my wife is first in last out. She leaves for work at 5:30 and and gets home at 4:30. Spends an hour in commute. She does IEP’s on the weekends. But she also has more time off. She’s off for 11 days for spring break right now. She had 2 weeks at Christmas every year. She has a week of fall break. She has a 5day thanksgiving weekend and let’s not forget all the other holidays that most people do not get off.

Even more is you’re completely ignoring the added bennies that teachers have that most do not. Retirement, better and cheaper health insurance, 15 sick days and this is the kicker for me 2 weeks of vacation. She uses maybe 2-3 sick days a year and the rest they roll into her other retirement accounts. Yes, they even have a special retirement account ON TOP of the state retirement fund.

Good teachers work hard. They are also taken as at of by ****** parents and bad districts. But they are not under paid. The hard numbers do not support that.

You are translating what you read as the facts across the board, and every district is different.
How can you accuse me of ignoring something when I’ve presented hard numbers? Sorry they disagree with your mad google skills. Glad your wife gets so much time off.
You talk about contracts; it’s in my wife’s contract to have a lunch break and a prep period. Literally never happens. So you can not do the math according to the “contract”.

 

[bobzilla]

You are translating what you read as the facts across the board, and every district is different.
How can you accuse me of ignoring something when I’ve presented hard numbers? Sorry they disagree with your mad google skills. Glad your wife gets so much time off.
You talk about contracts; it’s in my wife’s contract to have a lunch break and a prep period. Literally never happens. So you can not do the math according to the “contract”.

Then she needs to be taking it up with her union rep. That’s why they pay those dues. My wife has t had a prep in 18 years, and many of those she didn’t get 3 minutes to go get food. She finally had enough and put her foot down. She still doesn’t get a prep but gets time for lunch at least.

My numbers are the average salaries across the state. They do not support the ******** mantra that teachers are starving and poor.

Indiana passed a new starting salary last year of $40k for starting teachers. Want more pay? Get your masters or enough credits to be a masters equivalent. Cost us $10k out of pocket for an $11k increase in pay. That cost was covered after her first year. That will vary by district but it will be an increase in any district.

You want more? Sign up to coach, or do other extracurricular activities. Those pay at their hourly rate which is usually $30-40/ hour. Extended school year is hourly rate plus travel expenses.

But the fact of the matter is, teachers have greater benefits, more time off and at the very least equivalent pay. Tell me what other job offers 4 weeks off through the year, 20 major holidays, 10 sick days, 2 weeks of vacation, a guaranteed retirement and extra retirement account options plus 2 months off in the summer?

 

[Cavman]

Then she needs to be taking it up with her union rep. That’s why they pay those dues. My wife has t had a prep in 18 years, and many of those she didn’t get 3 minutes to go get food. She finally had enough and put her foot down. She still doesn’t get a prep but gets time for lunch at least.

My numbers are the average salaries across the state. They do not support the ******** mantra that teachers are starving and poor.

Indiana passed a new starting salary last year of $40k for starting teachers. Want more pay? Get your masters or enough credits to be a masters equivalent. Cost us $10k out of pocket for an $11k increase in pay. That cost was covered after her first year. That will vary by district but it will be an increase in any district.

You want more? Sign up to coach, or do other extracurricular activities. Those pay at their hourly rate which is usually $30-40/ hour. Extended school year is hourly rate plus travel expenses.

But the fact of the matter is, teachers have greater benefits, more time off and at the very least equivalent pay. Tell me what other job offers 4 weeks off through the year, 20 major holidays, 10 sick days, 2 weeks of vacation, a guaranteed retirement and extra retirement account options plus 2 months off in the summer?

Teacher pay is also dictated at local level. But they never protest the school boards. They always go right to the state house.. they need to talk to the middle man

 

[HoughMade]

Why is borrowing 100% of all expenses and graduating in debt the tax payers fault?...

It's not and it's stupid and unnecessary. I am not 100% against student loans, but I have a few rules about them along these lines.

1. Parents, plan and help keep your kids out of student debt by teaching them anti-debt principles and saving to help them with their education if at all possible.
2. Do everything you can to not borrow (lower cost schools and work!) and only borrow the last bit and only if absolutely necessary.
3. Only borrow for school if what you are studying is a virtual guarantee to increase your income potential enough to allow you to pay off the loan in half the required time.
4. NEVER borrow to pursue your "passion" unless, realistically, your "passion" fits #3. Don't plan on making it as an artist, in show biz, etc.
5. Do not borrow for another level of education unless you have the previous degree paid off.

When I finished law school, I had student loans, sure, equivalent to a mid-level Camry which were rapidly paid off. I had classmates who owed the equivalent to full mortgage on a McMansion. Some still owe...and we graduated 24 years ago.

I say all that to say this- I think rule #3 only allows for borrowing a limited amount if the end goal is being a K-12 teacher. Make that decision wisely.

Oh, and no one......no one, pays full price for college tuition. Tuition prices are only slightly less fictitious than medical billing (and that's coming from a guy who has paid for 2 college educations in recent history, other than his own, and will be starting on a 3rd this fall- never having been eligible for financial aid).

[ETA] Of course, a very viable way to avoid student debt is to pursue a career that doesn't require college. My Dad always told me, and I passed along, that everyone should develop skills of their own so that the loss of a job isn't devastating. You can take your skills and make money. That does not necessarily require college. It looks like I may only pay for 3 college educations instead of 4 because the youngest is headed toward a skilled trade. I will be eternally grateful.