Opinions of FN's Five-seven

[MilitaryArms]

5.7x28mm performance information:
SS195 FMJ and SS197 ballistic tip (bare and heavy clothing)

9mm performance information:
9mm Ammunition Performance Data

.45 ACP performance information:
.45 ACP Ammunition Performance Data

The 5.7 does not even meet the minimum FBI standards for penetration (9" is far short of 12"):
CALIBERS -- FBI Ballistic Test Protocol

By all established measurement standards for ballistic performance, the 5.7 fails miserably. The one and only area where the 5.7 excels is in body armor penetration with the SS190, which again is illegal for civilians to purchase. Even if you could purchase it, it would still make a terrible personal defense round unless you plan on being attacked by body armor wearing thugs.

Why anyone would select the 5.7 over a 9mm or .45 for civilian personal protection is beyond me. Why handicap yourself? The 9mm and .45 both deliver more energy and provide more penetration. To say the 5.7 was designed to penetrate is very misleading. It's true that the SS190 (illegal for civilians to purchase) was designed to penetrate body armor it was not intended to deeply penetrate flesh. The civilian loadings not only don't penetrate body armor, but as you can see from the tests above it doesn't penetrate flesh all that well either.

The civilian loadings (non-SS190) are more like a .22 WMR than they are dissimilar.

 

[Disposable Heart]

If I remember though, the only thing that came close to the 5.7 in terms of a .22 mag autoloader was some Grendel gun. It tended to jam or blow up (shooters choice ). Realistically, a much more durable and reliable weapon like the 5.7 would be much better than many of the .22 mags on the market. Ammo would be more expensive, but isnt most .22 mag designed for varmits? I do see at this site (Brass Fetcher Ballistic Gelatin Testing) that does bullet testing (found them on the High Road) that the .22 mag will either ice pick or do very little damage, whilst the 5.7mm fragments really crazy and penetrates reasonably deep.

Energy numbers I dont understand. Lots of folks follow those thinking they mean alot. Look at Magsafe and Glaser. Huge numbers for the rounds they are made into but very little effect on human anatomy other than a massive surface wound.

While the arguements go about the .22 mag versus 5.7, I have not began to determine which is better. In one hand, 5.7 does more "damage" than .22 mag, more inherent reliable extraction and feeding, and is offered on the market today in an autoloading handgun, but its expensive (both the platform and the round). But, .22 mag offers better cost, easier supply (its practically everywhere) but at the exchange of a potentially unreliable cycling situation and no current production autoloader considered reliable.

This is actually a really hard thing to think about. I do like the barrels I see for bolt actions that are chambered for 5.7. It would make an awesome short range (up to 200 yards) varmit around, however, I also like .22 Hornet, so my opinion on that doesnt matter . Now give me an autoloading handgun in .22 Hornet, and Im yours forever!

 

[MilitaryArms]

22 Magnum Winchester 40gr FMJ

http://www.brassfetcher.com/22%20Magnum%20CCI%2040gr%20Maxi-Mag%20JHP.html

Yeah, the .22 Mag actually penetrated 14"... It's not a pencil hole that it leaves either. And if you read a lot about terminal ballistics, temp wound cavity isn't the end all in bullet performance. Read about how the FBI selects a cartridge (link provided)... they've spent far more time and money researching this than anyone else here has.

 

[BCMalone]

Yes but those 22wmr velocities would be a lot less coming out of a pistol barrel.

http://www.gunblast.com/AMT-AutoMagII.htm Has a comparison of 3 22 mag pistols. Highest was 1680FPS from a 30 grain CCI Maxi-Mag +V in a 6" Barrel

Elite Ammunition's 5.7x28mm 28 grain S4 SuperRapTOR = 2425fps average @ 365.6 Ft.Lbs from a 5" FiveseveN barrel.

FN's factory loads are only good for target practice. EA's is much better.

That said, I also think the 22 mag is a bit underestimated itself.

You're right, the .22 WMR kicks its butt.

SS195
Muzzle Velocity: Five-seveN (1890 fps)
Muzzle Energy: Five-seveN (222 ft-lbs)

SS196
Muzzle Velocity: Five-seveN (1650 fps)
Muzzle Energy: Five-seveN (242 ft-lbs)

SS190 (Duty Round - you can't legally buy it)
Muzzle Velocity: Five-seveN (2133 fps)
Muzzle Energy: Five-seveN (313 ft-lbs)

.22 Magnum:
40 gr JHP 1,910 ft/s - 324 ft·lbs
30 gr HP 2,200 ft/s - 322 ft·lbs

 

[MilitaryArms]

You think the .22 WMR is underestimated as what, a personal defense round?

 

[WHITE_WOLFE]

They do have a very defined purpose, one which doesn't fit most civilian applications. I'm not able to able to purchase SS190 ammo, are you?

Even if I were able to purchase SS190 ammo, I don't plan on being attacked my Russian Spetsnaz wearing body armor nor do I plan on shooting at police. I highly doubt a thug clad in body armor is going to hold me up at the gas station or bust in my door at 2am to steal my DVD player.

Since body armor wearing thugs are kind of low on my threat list, I'll opt for something more potent than a .22 mag for personal protection.

Im sure we could find some for the right price. It may, some day, get to the point that we need something that will go thru a vest.

Was the VA Tech shooter wearing a vest? I cant remember but thought he was.

 

[BCMalone]

Just in general.

You think the .22 WMR is underestimated as what, a personal defense round?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Im sure we could find some for the right price. It may, some day, get to the point that we need something that will go thru a vest.

Was the VA Tech shooter wearing a vest? I cant remember but thought he was.

Whats to stop a person like me from buying a bunch of 5.7 brass (or making it ), a 5.7 and the reloading dies. Throw in a good 50 grain formula (they are the same diameter as .224) for a hot load. Then tip them with Barnes 50 gr. Banded Solids (solid brass or bronze or something). Wouldnt that be considered AP due to metal composition? I just had an evil thought! For people like me, Idle hands spend time at the reloading press!

 

[Disposable Heart]

Not to be a jerk, but FBI testing is extensive, but not the end all. They pay for some of the testing, but some of that is also footed by the ammo companies themselves. There are alot of effective rounds that dont meet FBI standards. Its extensive but not end all.

I completely forgot the .22 Mag is usually fired from a rifle, wherin the 5.7 is fired from a pistol.

14 inches in gelatin is impressive but Ive felt gelatin. No where as close as a human body. Humans have sinew, bones and muscle that is far more solid (while being plyable) than gelatin. I would think a testing material composed of "sheets" of gelatin with occasional "sheets" of a thin, foamy rubber material with a "bone" in the front would be a far more accurate test. Pressed, gelatin has little "give back" or spring than human flesh (now Im sitting here poking my belly ).

Personally, I would maybe trust the 5.7 round over .22 Mag, but I dont own either (have bills to pay). I will stick to my 185 grain fast flat nosed ball for carry in my 1911 (gotta love handloading).

The guy at VA had a load bearing (cheap airsoft) vest for carrying stuff, not for protection. Scary to think though if someone was crazy and wanted to rack up body count before being killed by police, they would wear a protective vest to keep from dying immediantly. Scary thought.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Not to be a jerk, but FBI testing is extensive, but not the end all. They pay for some of the testing, but some of that is also footed by the ammo companies themselves. There are alot of effective rounds that dont meet FBI standards. Its extensive but not end all.

While not the end all, they have the actual combat experience and EXTENSIVE after action reports with autopsy's and detailed ballistics reports from those shootings that have driven their expansion and penetration requirements.

If you can cite a more credible or reliable source, one that claims the 5.7 meets or exceeds their standards, I'm all eyes.

 

[Bhriindan82]

You're right, the .22 WMR kicks its butt.

SS195
Muzzle Velocity: Five-seveN (1890 fps)
Muzzle Energy: Five-seveN (222 ft-lbs)

SS196
Muzzle Velocity: Five-seveN (1650 fps)
Muzzle Energy: Five-seveN (242 ft-lbs)

SS190 (Duty Round - you can't legally buy it)
Muzzle Velocity: Five-seveN (2133 fps)
Muzzle Energy: Five-seveN (313 ft-lbs)

.22 Magnum:
40 gr JHP 1,910 ft/s - 324 ft·lbs
30 gr HP 2,200 ft/s - 322 ft·lbs

Fair enough. But which really matters in the long run? Round penetration or the energy the round delivers to the target? (Honest question) Would your overall opinion change if you were wanting the Five-Seven for simple target shooting vs. daily carry?

 

[MilitaryArms]

In the end, for defensive carry, it's penetration (#1) followed by permanent wound cavity. That means for defensive purposes shot placement is everything and penetration is most important. A 5.7 isn't going to penetrate bone better than a .45 ACP or 9mm.

For target shooting the 5.7 is exceptional, if you're Bill Gates. I like the cartridge for what it is, and I think a bolt gun firing a hotrod round would be even more fun. I have nothing against it really, I just think it's a poor choice for defensive purposes.

When it comes to shooting in the real world you'll find you may have to shoot through auto glass, wooden doors, thick clothing, dry wall, whatever. A light weight and fast moving bullet that quickly gives up its mass (which the 5.7 does) isn't the round for such situations. It has one very narrow application with the proper ammo and that's to penetrate body armor.

But, like they say... opinions are like a-holes. Take it for what it's worth, which isn't much given we're on the internet. But my life and the life of my family is more important to me than carrying the latest and greatest unproven high-tech gizmo just for the sake of having it. I know the .45 ACP works and works well, so that's where I am going to put my chips for serious matters.

For plinking, I'll even shoot a .25 ACP.