Open Carrying at Place of Worship.

[GuyRelford]

Exactly. If you believe your 2nd Amendment Right is really "God given", then why would it be rescinded at the door?

I can't argue with that logic! It's just that sometimes God and the sovereign State of Indiana don't see things exactly the same way, it appears. But I'm on your side!!!

 

[Mike H]

concealed yes, open, no.

 

[tharlow514]

It is legal to carry on the property of a church that has a school attached if you have permission from the church.
The head usher is usually the person to approach about this.
Several have made posts on other threads--now fallen into the deep recesses of INGO--about having permission from their church that has a school on its property.
I have seen discussions of whether it is or is not appropriate to carry a handgun in church, and I don't want to convince you that you should if you don't want to, but I want God to use me however he wants to use me, and if I have the ability to defend the people in my church from an attacker with my gun, it would be irresponsible to leave my gun at home.

Is this in the IC? I would like to know because I am Catholic and most churches we attend have schools either attached or on the premises. Gun Lawyer, what is your professional opinion?

 

[John Galt]

Wasn't Peter packing heat (sword) in the Garden and used it to take a Roman's ear off? I don't remember Jesus chastising Peter about carrying, just inappropriate use perhaps. Anyway, I carry in church and have zero guilt. Bad guys don't care where they bring harm, be it a church or not.

A couple years ago, a woman in a Colorado church prevented a mass murder by being prepared. Security Guard: 'God Guided Me And Protected Me' - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver

 

[dburkhead]

Wasn't Peter packing heat (sword) in the Garden and used it to take a Roman's ear off? I don't remember Jesus chastising Peter about carrying, just inappropriate use perhaps. Anyway, I carry in church and have zero guilt. Bad guys don't care where they bring harm, be it a church or not.

A couple years ago, a woman in a Colorado church prevented a mass murder by being prepared. Security Guard: 'God Guided Me And Protected Me' - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver

Not only did Jesus not tell him to get rid of the sword (but rather to "put up thy sword into its place"), but he had just got done telling them to make sure they had one.

As for bad guys not caring. I disagree. They care very much and will tend to pick places where they expect the sheep to be unarmed.

Since 1950 # killed in mass shootings* in the US:

Gun free zones: 226
Gun ranges: 0

* for this purpose, I define a "mass shooting" as one where 4 or more people are killed, in a single incident, by one or more people using firearms.

The Colorado church incident, BTW, per the news reports I gathered on it, was stopped before it got to "mass shooting" level. While that may be cold comfort to those who were killed, it should be of great relief to those still alive because it was stopped.

 

[ChrisK]

It is legal to carry on the property of a church that has a school attached if you have permission from the church.
The head usher is usually the person to approach about this.
Several have made posts on other threads--now fallen into the deep recesses of INGO--about having permission from their church that has a school on its property.
I have seen discussions of whether it is or is not appropriate to carry a handgun in church, and I don't want to convince you that you should if you don't want to, but I want God to use me however he wants to use me, and if I have the ability to defend the people in my church from an attacker with my gun, it would be irresponsible to leave my gun at home.

Just to expand on the permission issue, Not only do you need it from the church but it must also be given by the schools administration. (In writing BTW) Not only do I carry but the pastor does also. I also do firearms safety training for the members of the church.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Exactly. If you believe your 2nd Amendment Right is really "God given", then why would it be rescinded at the door?

I more got the impression that he just thinks it is disrespectful to carry in God's House. This is not the first time I've heard that or similar arguments... I don't agree, but I respect his opinion for what it is. (not that you or Paco said anything to indicate you do not... just that I'm only speaking for myself here. )

Blessings,
Bill

 

[indyjeepnut]

CC yes , OC no. Every Sunday.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Is this in the IC? I would like to know because I am Catholic and most churches we attend have schools either attached or on the premises. Gun Lawyer, what is your professional opinion?

OK, I'm not GL, but while it is in the text that with permission from the school you can carry there, there is nothing that speaks to carry at a church per se. (of course, if they're on the same premises...)

Absent any legislation making it unlawful... it is lawful.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[cce1302]

The question of carrying at church if it has a school on its property:

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.


To paraphrase the highlighted:
IC 35-47-9 does not apply to a person who has been authorized (to carry) by the school or another person who owns or operates the property (the church).

 

[MontereyC6]

I would if I could... But I can't, so I won't.

-J-

Hopefully after the first of the week we'll find out we CAN!

 

[ChrisK]

The question of carrying at church if it has a school on its property:

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.


To paraphrase the highlighted:
IC 35-47-9 does not apply to a person who has been authorized (to carry) by the school or another person who owns or operates the property (the church).

Exactly! As I said, get it in writing. BTW, our pastor is also a Sheriffs Deputy for Porter County.

 

[JetGirl]

I more got the impression that he just thinks it is disrespectful to carry in God's House. This is not the first time I've heard that or similar arguments...

In that respect, what about it would denote disrespect?
And what about guys that carry pocket knives as part of their daily routine of dress? Would they be viewed the same as a firearm?
Or how about women that carry mace in their purses...should they glove box it before coming into a church?
Not debating...just asking. I'm just wondering if all tools are viewed the same or if a firearm is somehow more disrespectful than mace, knives, or any other method of self preservation.
Don't get me started on the usher that knows Muay Thai.

 

[stilllearning09]

A number of years back, one of our ministers had a service in which he blessed all of the weapons and the people who carry them.
If I remember right, that Sunday, the church was packed.

 

[KiteEatingTree]

I find the interwoven legal issues concerning schools and places of worship to be rather fascinating. My first instinct would be to lean toward a 'pastoral' decision making process concerning whether firearms should be allowed on property that also operates as a school/day care. But, certainly, the expectation by any Hoosier resident is that any form of school/day care would be a gun-free zone, thus perhaps some indicator of gun allowance on 'religious school' property might be great notice. The ambiguity is interesting.

How might you behave in a congregation knowing that you had a controversial and/or threatened individual?

For instance, how would you have worked to prevent the assassination of Dr. George Tiller in Kansas if you were a member of his congregation?

I would never take a firearm to a place of worship, so I probably wouldn't have been able to prevent it unfortunately.

 

[haldir]

I am reminded by the old saying. better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[cce1302]

I find the interwoven legal issues concerning schools and places of worship to be rather fascinating. My first instinct would be to lean toward a 'pastoral' decision making process concerning whether firearms should be allowed on property that also operates as a school/day care. But, certainly, the expectation by any Hoosier resident is that any form of school/day care would be a gun-free zone, thus perhaps some indicator of gun allowance on 'religious school' property might be great notice. The ambiguity is interesting.

Are you suggesting that a church (that has a school on its property) should make some sort of announcement that it has authorized individuals to carry on its property? To what purpose? To forewarn those that would do its people harm?

How might you behave in a congregation knowing that you had a controversial and/or threatened individual?

how might you behave?

For instance, how would you have worked to prevent the assassination of Dr. George Tiller in Kansas if you were a member of his congregation?

I would never take a firearm to a place of worship, so I probably wouldn't have been able to prevent it unfortunately.

What do you intend to do? cower in a corner? Do you not trust God to use your abilities as he sees fit?

 

[tyrajam]

This is my 6th year of teaching at a Christian school which shares a building with a church. I have a gun in my car as often as not, and the administrators have never said anything about it. I always figured a private school is private property and is not regulated by all of the beauracracy that is placed on public schools. Private schools do not have to follow the district/state/federal standards on rules, attendance, curriculum, tenure, testing, or anything else.

Again, this is my experience, it is not legal advice.

 

[tharlow514]

This is my 6th year of teaching at a Christian school which shares a building with a church. I have a gun in my car as often as not, and the administrators have never said anything about it. I always figured a private school is private property and is not regulated by all of the beauracracy that is placed on public schools. Private schools do not have to follow the district/state/federal standards on rules, attendance, curriculum, tenure, testing, or anything else.

Again, this is my experience, it is not legal advice.

This is another good question because the Catholic church I attend the school is private so is it subject to the same laws as public schools?

 

[Bill of Rights]

This is my 6th year of teaching at a Christian school which shares a building with a church. I have a gun in my car as often as not, and the administrators have never said anything about it. I always figured a private school is private property and is not regulated by all of the beauracracy that is placed on public schools. Private schools do not have to follow the district/state/federal standards on rules, attendance, curriculum, tenure, testing, or anything else.

Again, this is my experience, it is not legal advice.

With respect, the state statute disagrees with you.

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

Not posted to show you up, just don't want to see you get busted solely because the law was other than you thought.

Blessings,
Bill