OC temptation

[Joe Williams]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming from your statement that you believe that IL SP officers voluntarily violate the right of the people of IL to keep and bear arms? Wouldn't it be the legislators of IL that are violating the constitutional right, since they are the makers of the law? LEOs are just the enforcers of the law, but there has to be a law made by someone else for them to enforce.

Or is your statement that since they are LEOs they violate everyone's constitutional rights, all the time?

The "I was just following orders" excuse was discredited in the late to mid-40s. They've got a choice as to whether they wish to violate the Constitution or not. They choose to be part of a system that does so, they choose to enforce it's law, they choose to deprive purportedly American citizens of their freedoms. So yes, IL SP voluntarily violate the Constitutional rights not just of IL citizens, but also of Americans who cross their border.

I would have uncovered just to rub the his face in the fact that he's now in a free country.

 

[XMil]

I guess neither of us knows what the other is saying!

I'm not saying it's solely the LEO's fault. I'm just saying that there is some culpability there. Laws have no teeth without someone willing to enforce them. It just bothers me that there are American's willing to violate the constitutional rights of other Americans, because it is their job.

Also, I'm not talking about some vague, gray area where something isn't constitutionally clear.There are a lot of laws that I think are in violation of the Constitution, but that's why we have the Supreme Court. I'm talking about something spelled out in the Bill of Rights, and there are people willing to use deadly force against their fellow Americans to enforce laws that are in direct opposition to that. That offends me.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

"All that is necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

"He who knows the good he ought to do, and doesn't do it sins."

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

I agree 100% with XMil. Officers who choose to enforce (yes, choose) unconstitutional laws are fiends. They are no more or less guilty than any other cog in the machine but they are guilty none the less.

I guess I'm just one of those hopeless flag-waving saps who believe the the role of police officers is to serve the people of their community by maintaining order and safety: not to harass people with politically unpopular practices, or to serve as revenuers for the county government. It matters little if we are talking about a cop heckling an OC'er or denying a tax-paying citizen entrance to a public building because of the 2" slip-joint in his pocket; these are all systems of the same social disease.

 

[Denny347]

ugh, not the "what if's" again. These hypotheticals have infinite answers/responses. What if ALL guns were illegal in IN? What if the sky was green? What if aliens visited us? Saying IL troops violate the Constitution is a bit sensational. That is your OPINION. We have legislatures that make laws, we enforce them, the Supreme Court (State and US) makes sure they are valid laws. That is how it works. Your OPINION is that the troops violate the Constitution but until it is proven/ruled upon, it is just conjecture.

 

[LPMan59]

That is your OPINION. We have legislatures that make laws, we enforce them, the Supreme Court (State and US) makes sure they are valid laws. That is how it works. Your OPINION is that the troops violate the Constitution but until it is proven/ruled upon, it is just conjecture.

just to play devil's advocate- so abortion is not murder because the Supreme Court said so? prior to that it was just an opinion or conjecture?

 

[Boilers]

Do it for all the IL residents that are here and you DON'T KNOW IT.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Or is your statement that since they are LEOs they violate everyone's constitutional rights, all the time?

"I solemnly vow upon my honor as a cadet and citizen, to adhere to the rules and regulations of the Illinois State Police and to adopt the agency's mission and goals into my every day life. I pledge to be honest in thought, word, and deed; to strive toward my highest learning effort and avail myself of every opportunity to learn to my highest capacity. I will do this by maintaining unimpeachable integrity of behavior to bring honor upon the Illinois State Police. I shall endeavor to give thoughtful, intelligent obedience to the commands of my superiors, to obey the Constitution and laws of my country and the State of Illinois in a way that will set my behavior for the remainder of my career with the Illinois State Police."

So what do they do when the laws conflict each other? They do whatever keeps them their jobs. So yes by enforcing IL law they can be violating your rights.

 

[Bill of Rights]

GENTLEMEN!!!

This thread was never intended to become an anti-LEO thing, nor was I saying that just because the guy with the SP license frame had IL on that frame and his plate did that make him an anti 2A guy. The simple fact is that, if in fact he was ILSP, he doesn't see people carrying on a regular basis who don't also wear a badge, and that is the sum total of the original thought.

Legislatures do make laws, many of which are of questionable Constitutionality, and many of which are completely unConsitutional. LEOs are charged with the task of enforcing the law, but also enforcing the Constitution, and it's a tough balance to strike. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes not. This thread is not about that, though. It's about us; the individual peaceable citizens who shouldn't have to choose between which laws we're going to follow.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Joe Williams]

ugh, not the "what if's" again. These hypotheticals have infinite answers/responses. What if ALL guns were illegal in IN? What if the sky was green? What if aliens visited us? Saying IL troops violate the Constitution is a bit sensational. That is your OPINION. We have legislatures that make laws, we enforce them, the Supreme Court (State and US) makes sure they are valid laws. That is how it works. Your OPINION is that the troops violate the Constitution but until it is proven/ruled upon, it is just conjecture.

The fact that a government agent, one of the people who will be knocking on your door if/when they decide to outlaw private firearms ownership, considers Constitutional rights a matter of opinion instead of the law of the land should send shivers down everyone's spine.

 

[Denny347]

just to play devil's advocate- so abortion is not murder because the Supreme Court said so? prior to that it was just an opinion or conjecture?

As far as the law...yes. My opinion of that is irrelevant. I'll keep my personal OPINION to myself. Sure I have discretion but it should not be based on a personal/political/religious agenda. For example, I have a "woman's health clinic" in my beat. There are protesters out there all the time and the facility has on-site security. I have talked to the protesters and was quite clear that they stay on the public sidewalk and off the clinic's property. I told them they could be out there all day long for the rest of the year as long as they stayed off their property. Some old man decided to ignore my advice and set up his protest on the clinic's property. When we asked him to leave, he refused. He was arrested for trespass. If I had a political/religious agenda, I could have used my discretion and not arrested him. It would have been stupid but I could have done so. Whether or not I thought abortion was murder, the Supreme Court ruled it legal, the business is operating within the law. The Supreme Court tells us all the time how to apply the laws given to us. If I ignore the Supreme Court then where does it stop? You give me a better alternative to how I currently follow the law?

 

[Denny347]

The fact that a government agent, one of the people who will be knocking on your door if/when they decide to outlaw private firearms ownership, considers Constitutional rights a matter of opinion instead of the law of the land should send shivers down everyone's spine.

Whatever Joe.

 

[El Cazador]

GENTLEMEN!!!

This thread was never intended to become an anti-LEO thing, nor was I saying that just because the guy with the SP license frame had IL on that frame and his plate did that make him an anti 2A guy. The simple fact is that, if in fact he was ILSP, he doesn't see people carrying on a regular basis who don't also wear a badge, and that is the sum total of the original thought.

Legislatures do make laws, many of which are of questionable Constitutionality, and many of which are completely unConsitutional. LEOs are charged with the task of enforcing the law, but also enforcing the Constitution, and it's a tough balance to strike. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes not. This thread is not about that, though. It's about us; the individual peaceable citizens who shouldn't have to choose between which laws we're going to follow.

Blessings,
Bill

Yeah...it doesn't read like they heard you Bill...

 

[Bigum1969]

Back to the original post....

I would've been extremely tempted to tuck my shirt in so my gun was visible. I get irked every single time I have to disarm and enter Stallinois.

 

[Locke]

So to the original topic;

I wouldn't. I only have a Fobus holster, and get held up quite a bit by random LEO's while going about my business. I don't know about you folks, but when I leave to do something, I want to do what I intended on doing when I left. I don't carry as much as I'd like to anymore because of restraints on my time. Being constantly approached at gas stations and supermarkets by LEO's demanding to see and verify my LTCH by no means make for a pleasant or productive day.

Personally, I'd rather not poke. I always have something better to do.



I need to get a CC holster.

 

[Bigum1969]

So to the original topic;

I wouldn't. I only have a Fobus holster, and get held up quite a bit by random LEO's while going about my business. I don't know about you folks, but when I leave to do something, I want to do what I intended on doing when I left. I don't carry as much as I'd like to anymore because of restraints on my time. Being constantly approached at gas stations and supermarkets by LEO's demanding to see and verify my LTCH by no means make for a pleasant or productive day.

Personally, I'd rather not poke. I always have something better to do.



I need to get a CC holster.

Can you share some of these stories?

 

[public servant]

Hey old man!! Back on the sidewalk!!

 

[Locke]

Can you share some of these stories?

My most recent experience, and also the last time I OC'd, was 3 or 4 Fridays ago.

I stopped at the 7-11 on SR120 and Johnson St. here in Elkhart to get fuel and smokes. After filling up (pay-at-the-pump) I went inside to purchase some cigarettes. Apparently, a local police officer saw the pistol on my hip while I was babysitting the pump as I was fueling up.

While standing in line inside the store, a man briskly walked past me, coming from in front of me. I glanced at him and nodded, as I do to anybody I notice making eye contact with me. He was in plain clothes, but I did notice his side-arm and badge on his belt. I thought nothing of it.

He came up behind me, uncomfortably close, and asserted that I "Keep my hands where they were" (crossed over my chest, at the time) and asked if I had a license. I replied "Yes", and he asked where it was. I told him that it was in my wallet, so I gracefully pulled it from my wallet and gave it to him.

During this while, of course people are rushing their children passed me and the majority of the people in the building are gawking over their shoulders.

He looks over my license, and radios in the information. A few minutes later, he returns it to me and tells me to have a good day. He leaves, I finish my business in the store, and left.

While not a traumatic experience, (I have other stories, I'll start a thread later) it definitely wasted a good 5 minutes of my time and ruined my mood for a good part of the day.

 

[public servant]

The fact that a government agent, one of the people who will be knocking on your door if/when they decide to outlaw private firearms ownership, considers Constitutional rights a matter of opinion instead of the law of the land should send shivers down everyone's spine.

*knock, knock*

Who's there?

Land shark...

 

[lawrra]

My most recent experience, and also the last time I OC'd, was 3 or 4 Fridays ago.

I stopped at the 7-11 on SR120 and Johnson St. here in Elkhart to get fuel and smokes. After filling up (pay-at-the-pump) I went inside to purchase some cigarettes. Apparently, a local police officer saw the pistol on my hip while I was babysitting the pump as I was fueling up.

While standing in line inside the store, a man briskly walked past me, coming from in front of me. I glanced at him and nodded, as I do to anybody I notice making eye contact with me. He was in plain clothes, but I did notice his side-arm and badge on his belt. I thought nothing of it.

He came up behind me, uncomfortably close, and asserted that I "Keep my hands where they were" (crossed over my chest, at the time) and asked if I had a license. I replied "Yes", and he asked where it was. I told him that it was in my wallet, so I gracefully pulled it from my wallet and gave it to him.

During this while, of course people are rushing their children passed me and the majority of the people in the building are gawking over their shoulders.

He looks over my license, and radios in the information. A few minutes later, he returns it to me and tells me to have a good day. He leaves, I finish my business in the store, and left.

While not a traumatic experience, (I have other stories, I'll start a thread later) it definitely wasted a good 5 minutes of my time and ruined my mood for a good part of the day.

Maybe you inadvertently caused the officer to feel nervous. You could discuss your OC experiences here: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/34140-where_did_you_oc_today-50.html

And the original topic...If I'm wearing my IWB holster, it's going to stay out of sight. If I'm wearing my SERPA holster, it will remain visible. The holster I wear depends on where I'm going, what I'm doing, and how long I'm going to be out. I CC when in large groups, when I volunteer to be a designated driver (TRUE DD, not the "I'll have a couple and sober up before we leave" BS), at church services/events, so I don't frighten the sheeple. I OC everywhere else

 

[Donnelly]

Hey old man!! Back on the sidewalk!!

Public Servant, why do you guys always take your academy graduation pictues in black & white?