NRA ad goes too far?

[Kutnupe14]

"Our side" has advocated calm, dispassionate discourse based solely on facts and logic. "Our side" similarly criticizes those who oppose us for the almost total emotional basis for their rhetoric.

We know emotional appeals are effective. Sometimes they are too effective.

Why not have arguments that are based on facts and logic, but deliver them with emotional appeal as well? It seems that as long as the foundation is sound, passionate expression is not necessarily a bad thing and can be a very powerful complement.

So the whole militia movement, Bundy Ranch, Sovereign Citizen movement, Oregon Wildlife Refuge, abortion clinic bombings, the Somali apartment bombing plot, the Las Vegas murder or two cops... just passed you by 'eh?

 

[tbhausen]

So much discussion and debate over how the message is delivered... The message itself is what matters, and it is spot-on.

 

[IndyDave1776]

So the whole militia movement, Bundy Ranch, Sovereign Citizen movement, Oregon Wildlife Refuge, abortion clinic bombings, the Somali apartment bombing plot, the Las Vegas murder or two cops... just passed you by 'eh?

I would not think you intend to imply that being a right of center supporter of the Second Amendment puts me in the same basket with Sovereign Citizens, but the way you present this could make someone who doesn't know you wonder.

 

[Fargo]

I think that is probably an excellent idea.... Ronald Reagan went on TV and explained the sale of arms to Iran depite a US Arms embargo. Nov 13th, 1986. Look it up. I don't know what type of creative gobbledygook one has to come up with to NOT see that as giving "aid and comfort" to an enemy.

If you have a few minutes, take a look at Cramer v. United States, 325 U.S. 1. It was the first time SCOTUS ruled on that portion of Article III

On the other hand, a citizen may take actions which do aid and comfort the enemy -- making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength -- but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason.

Do you think Regan's intent was to betray America because he adhered to Iran?

 

[GIJEW]

I would not think you intend to imply that being a right of center supporter of the Second Amendment puts me in the same basket with Sovereign Citizens, but the way you present this could make someone who doesn't know you wonder.

Well said: calm, rational, without clenched fists, and all.
I was told to spread 'rep' around.

 

[Hop]

What a few in here are missing is Dana is denouncing the violence incited by the far leftists. You know, some who already have a clenched fist on their own flag. Through her video clips she shines the spotlight, the "clenched fist of truth" on the results of their lies.

No where in that ad is any sort of call to arms. If some private schools allows their property to get torched and broken who cares. If the violent mob turns on the law abiding public aka Ferguson, then squash it legally. There's a point where police will have to do their jobs. The violent far left wants a martyr. She mentions this in the ad.

What would have worked better IMO is not to say "they". Call " them" out for what they are; radical leftist terrorists.

 

[foszoe]

Great Commercial. Glad to see they spent my money on something that started some serious conversations.

If only they would say something about Castille.

 

[Beowulf]

Great Commercial. Glad to see they spent my money on something that started some serious conversations.

If only they would say something about Castille.

Hmm, they have money for inflammatory ad that specifically calls out the Black Lives Matter protests while at the same time they stay completely silent when a black gun owner is murdered in front of his girlfriend and her child... man, it's almost as if those two things together could be construed to indicate something about the NRA that would not paint in a very good light.

Loecsh and her shrill, partisan nonsense needs to go, along with whoever in the NRA leadership greenlit this ad. The group is the National RIFLE Association, not the National Republican Association or the National Rightwing Association. Their charter is to protect 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens (all citizens, including people like Philando Castille). They are not just another wing of the Republican party. They need to stay on target and actually reach out to all Americans, to get everyone to understand how important it is to protect the 2nd Amendment.

 

[phatgemi]

Really funny to see this thread. Locally (Brookville - Franklin County) we have a nutjob that admins a facebook political page and writes weekly letters to the editior railing on all things conservative. He's anti gun, anti military and loves Bernie Sanders. His funniest recent posting was in relation to this same NRA ad. He closed saying he sure hoped Indiana never allows open carry. Hope no one brings him up to speed!

 

[Kutnupe14]

I would not think you intend to imply that being a right of center supporter of the Second Amendment puts me in the same basket with Sovereign Citizens, but the way you present this could make someone who doesn't know you wonder.

Its the hyperbole of partisanship. If one so much as leans one way, then they are kindred spirits with the extremes of the spectrum. Surely you've seen that repeated on INGO numerous times, right?

 

[eldirector]

Hmm, they have money for inflammatory ad that specifically calls out the Black Lives Matter protests while at the same time they stay completely silent when a black gun owner is murdered in front of his girlfriend and her child... man, it's almost as if those two things together could be construed to indicate something about the NRA that would not paint in a very good light.

Loecsh and her shrill, partisan nonsense needs to go, along with whoever in the NRA leadership greenlit this ad. The group is the National RIFLE Association, not the National Republican Association or the National Rightwing Association. Their charter is to protect 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens (all citizens, including people like Philando Castille). They are not just another wing of the Republican party. They need to stay on target and actually reach out to all Americans, to get everyone to understand how important it is to protect the 2nd Amendment.

This.

The whole world seems to want to "divide on conquer". Split everyone into factions, and set them upon each other. Why can't we stand FOR something, instead? Why does it have to be "us vs. them"?

Yeah, yeah... I know why....

 

[IndyDave1776]

Hmm, they have money for inflammatory ad that specifically calls out the Black Lives Matter protests while at the same time they stay completely silent when a black gun owner is murdered in front of his girlfriend and her child... man, it's almost as if those two things together could be construed to indicate something about the NRA that would not paint in a very good light.

Loecsh and her shrill, partisan nonsense needs to go, along with whoever in the NRA leadership greenlit this ad. The group is the National RIFLE Association, not the National Republican Association or the National Rightwing Association. Their charter is to protect 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens (all citizens, including people like Philando Castille). They are not just another wing of the Republican party. They need to stay on target and actually reach out to all Americans, to get everyone to understand how important it is to protect the 2nd Amendment.

I suppose we will have a definitive answer when we see their response at such a time that gangs of Klansmen engage in massive property damage and violent attacks against people.

I will agree with the purpose being the protection of the Second Amendment, but then again, when selling the need for personal protection against threats, you generally have to settle for the threat that actually exists that people see on the news. Aside from the chosen spokesperson, I fail to see the partisan connection, aside from it being common knowledge that the Democratic Party is openly hostile to the Second Amendment (not that the Republicans are all that great about it).

 

[Beowulf]

I suppose we will have a definitive answer when we see their response at such a time that gangs of Klansmen engage in massive property damage and violent attacks against people.

I will agree with the purpose being the protection of the Second Amendment, but then again, when selling the need for personal protection against threats, you generally have to settle for the threat that actually exists that people see on the news. Aside from the chosen spokesperson, I fail to see the partisan connection, aside from it being common knowledge that the Democratic Party is openly hostile to the Second Amendment (not that the Republicans are all that great about it).

Uhm, isn't that literally what they are known for? You know lynchings and cross burnings? Also, as was already mentioned by Kut, there have been numerous mass shootings and attacks by rightwing nutjobs in recent history, as well as things like the morons in the Bundy gang taking over a Federal park. Not to mention the knife attack in Oregon and the murder of Army 2nd Lt. Richard Collins (who was murdered by a white supremacist at the University of Maryland, specifically because he was black), both of which happened in the last couple of months. The NRA's response, if they say anything at all and not keep silent like they have with Castille, is typically either "a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun" or "we need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill". Both statements I can agree with (though the latter does make a little nervous if we are giving the government the power to determine what that exactly means).

So, please let's not pretend there isn't a wave of violence coming from the radical right. Of course this violence is not condoned by the vast majority of conservatives, but if we play the same game that the Loesch ad does, and can just paint all "conservatives" with that exact same brush (something the left is accused of doing regularly, and justly so).

As to the threats, the implication that these mass protests that have arisen over the past few years have all been violent and caused property damage and harm is also nonsense. Yes, there have been incidents and yes, there have been riots. But those have been way outnumbered by peaceful protests. Hell, there was a BLM protest here in Indy last July with a huge crowd (I've seen reports that said 600, but I can tell you for fact there were way more than that there), that was completely peaceful, with no rioting or attacks. Even relations between the police and the crowd were pretty cordial, if not down right friendly. So, blowing a few incidents way out of proportion (while strangely ignoring actual murders by rightwing attackers) does not make it reality.

Here's a picture from that really "violent" BLM protest last year:

Oooh, scary.

Anyway, I reiterate my original point. The ad is a hyperbolic piece of rightwing propaganda and does way more harm to the cause of protecting the 2nd Amendment than it does to help. You point out that the Democratic Party is openly hostile to the 2nd Amendment and I agree with you, but ads like the one that Loesch is in don't help convince the rank and file Democrats that they are being lied to by their leadership and are on the wrong side. Instead, it feeds into the narrative that gun owners are rightwing, paranoid, nut jobs who shouldn't be trusted with guns.

Instead of a policy of exclusion and feeding a rightwing echo-chamber, the NRA should be working on programs of engagement. In my experience, the best way to get rid of all the fear and nonsense that most anti-gunners spew out to the public is to take people to the range and show them a great afternoon of shooting with a friendly group of pro-gun folks. Challenge the perception that gun owners are paranoid rednecks waving confederate flags all over the place and show we are (for the most part) just regular people who, yes, love our guns and country, but also are friendly and welcoming to new comers. Show them our passion for shooting sports and explain to them the importance of protecting the 2nd Amendment, not just for hunting and sport shooting, but for protecting our families and nation.

This ad does none of that and that's why it is a terrible ad.

 

[JettaKnight]

Its the hyperbole of partisanship. If one so much as leans one way, then they are kindred spirits with the extremes of the spectrum. Surely you've seen that repeated on INGO numerous times, right?

A very recent example.

 

[JettaKnight]

Here's a picture from that really "violent" BLM protest last year:

How old is she? You can clearly see she's going for the gun of the officer with his back to her and the trooper in the foreground is grabbing her hand to stop it!

Anyway, I reiterate my original point. The ad is a hyperbolic piece of rightwing propaganda and does way more harm to the cause of protecting the 2nd Amendment than it does to help. You point out that the Democratic Party is openly hostile to the 2nd Amendment and I agree with you, but ads like the one that Loesch is in don't help convince the rank and file Democrats that they are being lied to by their leadership and are on the wrong side. Instead, it feeds into the narrative that gun owners are rightwing, paranoid, nut jobs who shouldn't be trusted with guns.

QFT.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Uhm, isn't that literally what they are known for? You know lynchings and cross burnings?

Once upon a time, yes. I can't remember any KKK-sponsored incidents that happened within the scope of my own memory. The 1920s have come and gone.

 

[GIJEW]

So, please let's not pretend there isn't a wave of violence coming from the radical right. Of course this violence is not condoned by the vast majority of conservatives, but if we play the same game that the Loesch ad does, and can just paint all "conservatives" with that exact same brush (something the left is accused of doing regularly, and justly so).

As to the threats, the implication that these mass protests that have arisen over the past few years have all been violent and caused property damage and harm is also nonsense. Yes, there have been incidents and yes, there have been riots. But those have been way outnumbered by peaceful protests. Hell, there was a BLM protest here in Indy last July with a huge crowd (I've seen reports that said 600, but I can tell you for fact there were way more than that there), that was completely peaceful, with no rioting or attacks. Even relations between the police and the crowd were pretty cordial, if not down right friendly. So, blowing a few incidents way out of proportion (while strangely ignoring actual murders by rightwing attackers) does not make it reality.







Instead of a policy of exclusion and feeding a rightwing echo-chamber, the NRA should be working on programs of engagement. In my experience, the best way to get rid of all the fear and nonsense that most anti-gunners spew out to the public is to take people to the range and show them a great afternoon of shooting with a friendly group of pro-gun folks. Challenge the perception that gun owners are paranoid rednecks waving confederate flags all over the place and show we are (for the most part) just regular people who, yes, love our guns and country, but also are friendly and welcoming to new comers. Show them our passion for shooting sports and explain to them the importance of protecting the 2nd Amendment, not just for hunting and sport shooting, but for protecting our families and nation.

This ad does none of that and that's why it is a terrible ad.

You talked about not painting both sides with a broad brush. The difference you're overlooking is that the left wing establishment HAS associated itself with the groups that caused violence. Yes, there are violent people on the radical right but they don't get endorsed by conservatives.

You talk about silence from conservatives regarding right wing violence, and it seems to me that you're just tuned in somewhere else and didn't get the memo. BTW regarding the shooting of Mr. Castille, DANA LOESCH was critical of the police officer (but you have to listen to her not NPR in order to hear that).

You talk about "blowing a few incidents out of proportion". Yes, most of the protesters are peaceful but antifa's violence and vandalism has become routine in places like portland and seattle. As for BLM, how many riots have there been and how many LEO's have been ambushed and murdered? More than "a few incidents". Again, the difference is that the left has excused if not embraced these groups whereas conservatives have no time for white supremacists.

As for inclusivity like taking non gun owners to the range as you suggested, the NRA has been pushing a grass roots mentor program to do exactly that.

Do you remember how 'W' Bush wouldn't respond to all the hyperbolic accusations against him? What's being said about Trump sounds very similar. My point is that neither issues or Trump spending time on twitter to talk back, has much to do with what's said about him...and his family. Given how polarized the country is/was, I think it's better use of the NRA's ad funds to reach out to those who voted "Trump"--or against clinton--than to run milquetoast outreach ads to people who aren't going to change how they vote--typically anti 2A.

 

[Beowulf]

Once upon a time, yes. I can't remember any KKK-sponsored incidents that happened within the scope of my own memory. The 1920s have come and gone.

No? Then maybe you should pay a little more attention.

F. Glenn Miller Jr. tells jurors he regrets not killing more people | The Kansas City Star

Here's a shooting at a synagogue perpetrated by the former leader of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. This was in 2014 and I certainly recall it. He said, during his trial, that his only regret was that he didn't shoot more people.

Over the last couple of years, the number of Klan groups has more than doubled and their membership is growing, along with neo-Nazis and other White supremacists.

 

[churchmouse]

No? Then maybe you should pay a little more attention.

F. Glenn Miller Jr. tells jurors he regrets not killing more people | The Kansas City Star

Here's a shooting at a synagogue perpetrated by the former leader of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. This was in 2014 and I certainly recall it. He said, during his trial, that his only regret was that he didn't shoot more people.

Over the last couple of years, the number of Klan groups has more than doubled and their membership is growing, along with neo-Nazis and other White supremacists.

Not seen this but it with all the unrest it is inevitable.

 

[BugI02]

Hmm, they have money for inflammatory ad that specifically calls out the Black Lives Matter protests while at the same time they stay completely silent when a black gun owner is murdered in front of his girlfriend and her child... man, it's almost as if those two things together could be construed to indicate something about the NRA that would not paint in a very good light.

Loecsh and her shrill, partisan nonsense needs to go, along with whoever in the NRA leadership greenlit this ad. The group is the National RIFLE Association, not the National Republican Association or the National Rightwing Association. Their charter is to protect 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens (all citizens, including people like Philando Castille). They are not just another wing of the Republican party. They need to stay on target and actually reach out to all Americans, to get everyone to understand how important it is to protect the 2nd Amendment.

While we're on the subject of shrill nonsense, every definition of 'murder' I can find requires malice aforethought/premeditation. I was unaware that the officer in the Philando Castille case had decided to kill him prior to their encounter

mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
verb
verb: murder; 3rd person present: murders; past tense: murdered; past participle: murdered; gerund or present participle: murdering
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
"somebody tried to murder Joe"
synonyms: kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out; More


This should by no stretch be interpreted as any sort of approval of the actions of said officer