Not Negligent Discharge...... just an accident that happens sometimes?

[Kirk Freeman]

Call me silly, but who holsters a pistol with the slide locked to the rear? Is that some secret squirrel BS ppl do these days?

One handed reloading drills.

Impossible for a gun to fire without pulling the trigger per INGO.

Don't make me go all Steve Malloy up in this piece.

 

[philbert001]

Sorry brother..... I started the thread under "carry issues/self defense" because I felt the officer's life was in danger due to almost being shot by one of them there self thinking/self shooting weapons that lurk out there! The press will try and cover the truth with stories of triggers snagging on shirts, pants, or even both...... but them there modern firearms have a mind of their own and can fire spontaneously. Luckily, the truth has now been exposed.

Lol! All good man! I thought about putting it under Tactics and Training, because if you shoot yourself in the leg drawing your sidearm, you need more of both!

 

[philbert001]

I'll just say this...I was at a training session last year standing right next to a well known INGO-er had when he had an AD after completing a stage. He was putting the pistol back in the holster and as I remember it, it snagged on his outer garment and fired straight into the ground through his holster right next to his leg. There was a nice neat set of two holes in his pants where it passed through a pleat that was just under the holster. The rocks kicked up by the blast bounced off my legs.

I'm all on board with there is no such thing as an accident in 99.9% of the cases we here about. But there are cases where negligent is not the right word, and circumstances that were unforeseen and nearly entirely out of the control of the person handling the firearm resulted in the discharge.

I can see this happening without booger hooking, but not on the draw!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Call me silly, but who holsters a pistol with the slide locked to the rear? Is that some secret squirrel BS ppl do these days?

We do at the range when leaving live fire, either done for the day, going to simunitions, etc. It allows the range safety officers to visually verify there's nothing in the mag well and nothing in the chamber.

 

[horsehaulin]

Could he have been wearing a Serpa and just been fast on the draw and a little lax on the trigger finger control?

 

[Crbn79]

We do at the range when leaving live fire, either done for the day, going to simunitions, etc. It allows the range safety officers to visually verify there's nothing in the mag well and nothing in the chamber.

I've done that as well, however not with a loaded mag in the handgun.

One handed reloading drills.



Don't make me go all Steve Malloy up in this piece.

I guess I didn't indicate I was responding in line with the news release about the fella drawing his pistol from his holster. Maybe there's more details than the press release contained, after all I would not be surprised to see them skimp on details.

 

[drillsgt]

We do at the range when leaving live fire, either done for the day, going to simunitions, etc. It allows the range safety officers to visually verify there's nothing in the mag well and nothing in the chamber.

This doesn't make any sense, sounds like military silliness. If you're leaving the range and or done for the day reload and reholster and go about your business. That's that cold range BS. Why leave the line with an unloaded pistol just to go somewhere else to ultimately have to reload? That's one thing I liked about Farnam's classes you always get off the line hot even if someone has to bring you one round to chamber. Everybody knew everybody's gun was loaded and ready.

 

[LarryC]

Never had a ND in just shy of 4 decades carrying a gun.

I have several Serpa CQC holsters utilized regularly. It is NOT 'the holster', it's the failure to train, by the person AND/OR their Trainer / Instructor, period.

And just think how many gun-toters we have out there that just go buy a handgun and holster, get their LTCH (CCW, whatever), carry it in public and don't train & 'qualify' on a regular basis because, "I have the right, dammit!"?

Well have to disagree with you! You are a newcomer, I will be 73 in 12 days, been carrying for more years than you. I have never had "Formal Training" - also NEVER had an ND OR AD. All firearms function somewhat the same, (Son and I have around a hundred). In reality common sense prevails. If you NEVER put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot, are careful about the type of clothing you wear, STOP drawing your firearm if it catches something, you will not have an ND or AD during the draw. If you ALWAYS clear your firearm when transporting or cleaning, verify the mag is removed and the chamber empty visually, you will not have an ND or AD during these actions.

My father passed on when I was 10 so unfortunately he didn't have the opportunity to train me. (He was a veteran of the Spanish American Conflict, WW-1 and Machine gun trainer after the war). My BIL took over the task in about 1951, he was a WW-2 Vet, master sergeant, held a Silver Star, 2 Bronze stars, and a purple heart. He trained me in both firearm safety and accuracy. I certainly have not felt the need to pay someone else to "train" me. Many safe, conscientious firearm owners have been "instructed / trained" by similar people. I have "trained" my son's, and to some extent, my grandsons. My whole family shoots regularly, AFAIK none have ever had any ND or AD. I feel quite sure the officer involved in the (questionable) AD has had pretty extensive "training" and was in fact receiving more when this incident happened. I am sure his occupation required that he "qualify" in his firearm use regularly, didn't prevent this incident - did it?

In my opinion, training will never replace common sense.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This doesn't make any sense, sounds like military silliness. If you're leaving the range and or done for the day reload and reholster and go about your business. That's that cold range BS. Why leave the line with an unloaded pistol just to go somewhere else to ultimately have to reload? That's one thing I liked about Farnam's classes you always get off the line hot even if someone has to bring you one round to chamber. Everybody knew everybody's gun was loaded and ready.

Because we never just leave the range after we're done shooting. There's always lectures, time to clean your firearms, ammo exchange, or something. We do stay hot between live fire stages.

 

[NIFT]

I was standing within 8 feet of the experienced SWAT officer (and competitive shooter) when he shot himself. There was one other participant between me and him during the Practical Pistol Applications class taught by Bob Vogel. Neither Vogel nor the victim fails to train or practice regularly.

Yes, it was a Blackhawk Serpa holster, and, yes, the ND occurred on the draw during individually timed exercises shooting strong hand only. The officer had the best possible outcome from a bad situation: he ruined the holster, ruined his pants (I saw both), and he got powder burns and a red stripe on the top of his right quadriceps. It was a relatively minor grazing wound with no entry/exit wound.

Not only did news reports say the gun snagged on an outer garment, but the officer so stated to me, personally. However, I can think of no way, on the draw stroke, a handgun can snag on any inanimate object that moves the trigger up faster than the gun moves up. Note: the officer, as a competitive shooter, was noticeably faster on the draw than most others--Vogel excepted!

The only logical explanation is he, while under a timer operated by the best competitive shooter in the world, did the old Serpa holster hook-the-trigger-with-the-index-finger-on-the-draw trick, and shot himself in the leg.

Although I was not watching the officer at the instant it happened, I was very close, heard the timer beep followed very quickly by the gunshot, and I saw the officer limp away. The officer spoke with me, briefly, after it was clear his injury was minor, and I had multiple conversations with Bob Vogel, both after the incident, at the banquet that evening, and the next day (yesterday.)

The injury could have been much more serious--even, potentially life threatening--but was not. The incident has firmly cemented my position of prohibiting Serpa holsters in Indiana Firearms Training classes. A retention holster with a release button on the out side that must be pressed with the trigger finger is an inherently dangerous design that must be operated "just so" to avoid a potentially catastrophic ND. There are much better choices in holsters.

 

[JetGirl]

A retention holster with a release button on the out side that must be pressed with the trigger finger is an inherently dangerous design that must be operated "just so" to avoid a potentially catastrophic ND. There are much better choices in holsters.

I've never thought that design was particularly genius...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I was standing within 8 feet of the experienced SWAT officer (and competitive shooter) when he shot himself. There was one other participant between me and him during the Practical Pistol Applications class taught by Bob Vogel. Neither Vogel nor the victim fails to train or practice regularly.

Yes, it was a Blackhawk Serpa holster, and, yes, the ND occurred on the draw during individually timed exercises shooting strong hand only. The officer had the best possible outcome from a bad situation: he ruined the holster, ruined his pants (I saw both), and he got powder burns and a red stripe on the top of his right quadriceps. It was a relatively minor grazing wound with no entry/exit wound.

Not only did news reports say the gun snagged on an outer garment, but the officer so stated to me, personally. However, I can think of no way, on the draw stroke, a handgun can snag on any inanimate object that moves the trigger up faster than the gun moves up. Note: the officer, as a competitive shooter, was noticeably faster on the draw than most others--Vogel excepted!

The only logical explanation is he, while under a timer operated by the best competitive shooter in the world, did the old Serpa holster hook-the-trigger-with-the-index-finger-on-the-draw trick, and shot himself in the leg.

Although I was not watching the officer at the instant it happened, I was very close, heard the timer beep followed very quickly by the gunshot, and I saw the officer limp away. The officer spoke with me, briefly, after it was clear his injury was minor, and I had multiple conversations with Bob Vogel, both after the incident, at the banquet that evening, and the next day (yesterday.)

The injury could have been much more serious--even, potentially life threatening--but was not. The incident has firmly cemented my position of prohibiting Serpa holsters in Indiana Firearms Training classes. A retention holster with a release button on the out side that must be pressed with the trigger finger is an inherently dangerous design that must be operated "just so" to avoid a potentially catastrophic ND. There are much better choices in holsters.

IBTIC*

*In Before The "It will never happen to me" Crowd.

 

[VERT]

I probably shouldn't comment but I will. I know the officer involved and am good friends with his partner. Both are experienced shooters. First thought was finger on trigger which Serpas have a bad rap. I am not a Serpa fan. My buddy seems to think the dangly cord with plastic nut on a jacket got inside the trigger guard when holstering. When going to draw the gun the shooter pressed down on the gun to get a firing grip and the trigger was pressed while in the holster. So may have happened with any holster. Serpa may have played a role since there is a latch that engages trigger guard. Either way this serves as a reminder that stuff can happen when holstering or drawing a pistol.

Off topic but I am not a big keep eyes down range while holstering fanatic. Maybe a bad habit but I tend to glance down when holstering. I figure if it is calm enough to put the gun away then I can spare a short glance. Reholstering is not a speed game.

 

[NIFT]

I probably shouldn't comment but I will. I know the officer involved and am good friends with his partner. Both are experienced shooters. First thought was finger on trigger which Serpas have a bad rap. I am not a Serpa fan. My buddy seems to think the dangly cord with plastic nut on a jacket got inside the trigger guard when holstering. When going to draw the gun the shooter pressed down on the gun to get a firing grip and the trigger was pressed while in the holster.

Perhaps...

That is, physically, possible but unlikely. It would require the interference to have been introduced on the previous re-holstering without pushing the gun (Glock, in .357 Sig, I believe) into the holster causing a discharge. Then, it would require pushing the gun at the beginning of the draw stroke to cause the discharge, when pushing the gun into the holster a little earlier did not. Could that have happened? Perhaps....

Both the officer and his partner are fine gentlemen and great, experienced shooters, and I shot with them in Vogel's class both this year and last. I am sure the officer involved feels terrible about the ND, and I am, truly, happy he suffered no serious injury. Both were back on the range the next day, and that's great.

My beef is only with the holster design.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

methinks when cops says pants=holster=Serpa. QED.

I demand that my winnings be paid in sushi, heavy on the eel.

In lieu of sushi, I will also be satisfied by the posting of a video of rhino doing an interpretative dance in tribute to negligent discharges.