Not good news for the Chevy Volt!

[radonc73]

They will pay thousands to LOOK eco friendly, my sister in law and her husband HAD to have a hybrid that they will never recover the cost of. But hey they look eco friendly, right?

 

[Disposable Heart]

They will pay thousands to LOOK eco friendly, my sister in law and her husband HAD to have a hybrid that they will never recover the cost of. But hey they look eco friendly, right?

It's the same with GM as well: I read a rather disgusting article in Motor Trend or some other dreck that claimed the Volt was the wave of innovation b/c it would raise the fleet fuel economy average to that they could build more "sports cars" and SUVs, which would sell.

GM and others are pretty much saying "hey, take THAT big oil" with a car like this, but so in bed with oil companies, quietly assuring them demand will still be high by creating more gas guzzlers. They don't want to innovate with their engines and designs to raise their individual vehicle's economy, they just want to play lawyer ball and do the bare minimum. Partly GM, partly us as well. We create the demand for gas guzzlers.

 

[mrjarrell]

This is one of those times where we should be following in Europe's footsteps. Their gasoline prices are way higher and than ours, (mostly due to over taxation) and they've dealt with it by embracing diesel. The small and midsize diesels in Europe get exceptional gas mileage and are eco-friendly to boot. Shoot, Ford makes an Econetic that gets about 70MPG and has better emissions than a hybrid. If we could do the same, we'd save more oil than we know what to do with and prices would come down, to boot. Unfortunately, the politicians in DC hate the idea and would hate losing their anti-diesel and big oil payoffs.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Euro Diesels fail BIG TIME when subjected to our EPA requirements. The Euro engines run very lean for good fuel economy, but they're very NOx heavy, which is the primary component of smog. Not a problem for europe where very few people drive, and when they do they don't drive very far. All that smog just blows away.

Here in America you get large, heavily populated, basins like LA and DFW and the smog just accumulates until the sky turns brown.

Now, the obvious solution is to apply low NOx regulations ONLY to areas like LA and DFW, but that would make too much sense. Instead we apply the same rules to ALL localities whether they make sense or not.

I see the future of the automobile in fuel cells. You can even run them off of fossil fuels. They produce CO2 and H2O. You can run a fuel cell off of pretty much so any organic material, as long as you can reform it to the point that the Hydrogen and Carbon can seperate. This is typically done with steam. Since a fuel cell produces a certain amount of heat, the fuel reformation can be done co-generatively.

 

[gunman41mag]

So the future of cars & trucks will be HYDROGEN FUEL CELL

 

[Duncan]

Ford had theirs

Chevy has theirs ..

 

[1911Shooter]

In looking at this report the volt doesnt make one bit of sense. Who can justify a 50.000 dollar car to save a thousand a year in gas. I have to look at this economically for my family. I cant spend Fifty grand on a car to save the world right now. Hell its hard enough to pay 25.000 for a new car let alone fifty. They need to come up with an idea everyone can afford and thats green. It cost way to much money to go green, and my family isnt going to suffer because so suit tells us we need to go green.

 

[gunman41mag]

In looking at this report the volt doesnt make one bit of sense. Who can justify a 50.000 dollar car to save a thousand a year in gas. I have to look at this economically for my family. I cant spend Fifty grand on a car to save the world right now. Hell its hard enough to pay 25.000 for a new car let alone fifty. They need to come up with an idea everyone can afford and thats green. It cost way to much money to go green, and my family isnt going to suffer because so suit tells us we need to go green.

I want to know what is chevy going to do, with all the junk batteries & the used VOLT when the batteries are worth more than the old VOLT, Is there going to be one big VOLT junk yard

 

[BigMatt]

I have a friend that bought their daughter a used Toyota Prius and 6 months later had to get a new battery. They came in under the 8 year warranty so they didn't have to shell out for it, but man, that would suck.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Euro Diesels fail BIG TIME when subjected to our EPA requirements. The Euro engines run very lean for good fuel economy, but they're very NOx heavy, which is the primary component of smog. Not a problem for europe where very few people drive, and when they do they don't drive very far. All that smog just blows away.

Here in America you get large, heavily populated, basins like LA and DFW and the smog just accumulates until the sky turns brown.

Now, the obvious solution is to apply low NOx regulations ONLY to areas like LA and DFW, but that would make too much sense. Instead we apply the same rules to ALL localities whether they make sense or not.

I see the future of the automobile in fuel cells. You can even run them off of fossil fuels. They produce CO2 and H2O. You can run a fuel cell off of pretty much so any organic material, as long as you can reform it to the point that the Hydrogen and Carbon can seperate. This is typically done with steam. Since a fuel cell produces a certain amount of heat, the fuel reformation can be done co-generatively.

You are right on about some of the earlier European diesels. That market regulated carbon much more than NOx. However, Europe is catching up with the US on NOx regulations, and will be in essence the same by the end of the decade.

 

[Leadeye]

The government can always double the subsidey if sales don't live up to expectation, it is thier company after all the BS. People would probably line up to buy a car where nearly half the purchase price would come in the form of a government check. Force federal fleet purchases with new regulations and I can see the volt being a big hit.

All it takes is more tax money to overturn the laws of physics, it's been working with water out west for years repealing the law of gravity.

 

[ATOMonkey]

You are right on about some of the earlier European diesels. That market regulated carbon much more than NOx. However, Europe is catching up with the US on NOx regulations, and will be in essence the same by the end of the decade.

So, they want to kill fuel economy too? Brilliant...

 

[$mooth]

As much as I don't like GM, I actually think the Volt is an important vehicle. It's an overhyped glorified hybrid, but it's a good stepping stone vehicle just like the original Insight and Prius. I wouldn't pay that much for it, but some people will. And their sacrifice will get us some great real world testing and better products later.

It's the same with GM as well: I read a rather disgusting article in Motor Trend or some other dreck that claimed the Volt was the wave of innovation b/c it would raise the fleet fuel economy average to that they could build more "sports cars" and SUVs, which would sell.

GM and others are pretty much saying "hey, take THAT big oil" with a car like this, but so in bed with oil companies, quietly assuring them demand will still be high by creating more gas guzzlers. They don't want to innovate with their engines and designs to raise their individual vehicle's economy, they just want to play lawyer ball and do the bare minimum. Partly GM, partly us as well. We create the demand for gas guzzlers.

I believe that CAFE requirements are not based on model count but vehicles sold. So selling 10,000 Volts will not make up very much margin to sell more sports cars. And thanks to the truck loophole, none of those SUVs count against their CAFE numbers.

A few years ago, I calculated the cost savings of a diesel jetta over the gas version. The diesel cost $4500 more and assuming diesel was the same price as gas. Even at the 15 mpg rated increase, it would take 180,000 miles to recoup that $4500 added cost and break even.

I did the same thing for the Honda civic hybrid. It gets 9 mpg more than the gas version at over $7000 more. It was close to 400,000 miles for the break even point.

People aren't going to pay thousands more just so they can feel good about the environment.

I would have agreed with this a few years ago, but the Civic Hybrid is only a couple grand more than a comparable civic. It's feature content slots it between the EX and EX-L with a couple extra goodies, so you're looking at $3000 more. I believe Honda has stated that they've been able to reduce the cost of their IMA system addition to ~$1500. During city driving that's $600/year (15k miles) and the $3k can be recouped in 5 years. Granted there's probably a little more maintenance (I haven't heard of anyone replacing a battery on their own dime to date).
It's still not for me and I think people think they are doing more for the environment than they are. But we've come a long way in a few years and those numbers arent too shabby.

 

[mrjarrell]

Euro Diesels fail BIG TIME when subjected to our EPA requirements. The Euro engines run very lean for good fuel economy, but they're very NOx heavy, which is the primary component of smog. Not a problem for europe where very few people drive, and when they do they don't drive very far. All that smog just blows away.

Here in America you get large, heavily populated, basins like LA and DFW and the smog just accumulates until the sky turns brown.

Now, the obvious solution is to apply low NOx regulations ONLY to areas like LA and DFW, but that would make too much sense. Instead we apply the same rules to ALL localities whether they make sense or not.

I see the future of the automobile in fuel cells. You can even run them off of fossil fuels. They produce CO2 and H2O. You can run a fuel cell off of pretty much so any organic material, as long as you can reform it to the point that the Hydrogen and Carbon can seperate. This is typically done with steam. Since a fuel cell produces a certain amount of heat, the fuel reformation can be done co-generatively.

The we need differing EPA requirements. I'd rather deal with the slight increase in NOx and see the improved MPG. That would do more for us than the silly EPA regs. It's not like we'd turn into Beijing overnight.

 

[langb29]

As much as I don't like GM, I actually think the Volt is an important vehicle. It's an overhyped glorified hybrid, but it's a good stepping stone vehicle just like the original Insight and Prius. I wouldn't pay that much for it, but some people will. And their sacrifice will get us some great real world testing and better products later.

I agree, it would be nice to get an edge on China, who has higher emission standards than California and is trying to get ahead on the technology and global market of electric vehicles. As others have said, I don't think it will ever be 100% electric, but to ignore the fact that we are beyond the peak of cheap oil supply and that other countries' demand for oil is accelerating will only make it harder for American companies to invest in R&D for new technologies. Stupid GM is losing there market share selling cars to China because they whine and complain about emission standards instead of trying to meet them. They don't see those standards as a way to drive out their competition, they see them as a roadblock to the old way of doing things, so they spend their money (our money) on lobbying against standards. Just stupid. They'll never get it, and as oil goes up and electric vehicles go down, we'll be buying our cars from China.

 

[gunman41mag]

I have a friend that bought their daughter a used Toyota Prius and 6 months later had to get a new battery. They came in under the 8 year warranty so they didn't have to shell out for it, but man, that would suck.

FRIENDS don't let FRIENDS drive a PRIUS

 

[melensdad]

I have a 2010 VW Jetta DIESEL "TDI"

$20,000

I average about 38 to 40 miles per gallon IN THE SUBURBS in my daily driving. I can easily top 50mpg on the highway. City driving yields about 35mpg.

A comparably equipped PRIUS was many thousands of dollars more. A Chevy Volt is more than double the cost of the Jetta TDI.

 

[jblomenberg16]

So, they want to kill fuel economy too? Brilliant...

Tighter and tighter emissions generally have hurt full consumption, although once the final regs for near zero emissions are in place (which in turn forces aftertreatment to comply) fuel economy will actually improve a bit from where it is today.

 

[gunman41mag]

I have a 2010 VW Jetta DIESEL "TDI"

$20,000

I average about 38 to 40 miles per gallon IN THE SUBURBS in my daily driving. I can easily top 50mpg on the highway. City driving yields about 35mpg.

A comparably equipped PRIUS was many thousands of dollars more. A Chevy Volt is more than double the cost of the Jetta TDI.

And your diesel engine will outlast the VOLT & PRIUS

 

[melensdad]

And your diesel engine will outlast the VOLT & PRIUS

No argument from me. That was one of the deciding factors.

I looked for economy. The PRIUS is the one everyone mentions, so I did the math on the PRIUS and even that didn't make much sense. It would take about 7 years for that car to 'pay off' and that didn't factor in replacement of the Toyota batteries, etc. The 2 worst things about the PRIUS are that its like driving a gumball machine with its funky interior and the actual driving experience sucks. Oh, and they are horrible in the snow.

The Jetta, with the TDI diesel, got me a $1500 "alternative fuel" tax credit on my taxes and it a riot to drive. How many 40+MPG cars can spin their tires from a stop, scoot around like sports cars, and be filled with lots of luxury features that are not even available on many nicer cars.