Noblesville, IN Appleseed - Oct 06-07, 2012

[dnurk]

Bumping up this thread from the Fall in hopes that one of our fantastic instructors might answer a question for me.

I've been doing some dry fire practice in my basement in an effort to improve and get another patch this Spring.

I feel like I'm building a really solid position in prone but sense I have some torque on my front (left) hand. That is, if I completely relax all the muscles in my supporting hand and wrist, I can tell the pressure from the sling is slightly rotating the gun to the right in a clockwise direction. It isn't massive but I can tell this is impacting my NPOA and I would like to get rid of it.

Any instructors care to guess what might be the cause? I know it's hard without actually seeing my position but I thought I would ask if there are common things to look for as I self diagnose.

Also getting ready to put some tech sights on a different 10/22 and see if I can get my next path with open sights. Can't wait to learn more, shoot more, and do another 'seed.

Thanks all.

 

[spitfire51]

Bumping up this thread from the Fall in hopes that one of our fantastic instructors might answer a question for me.

I've been doing some dry fire practice in my basement in an effort to improve and get another patch this Spring.

I feel like I'm building a really solid position in prone but sense I have some torque on my front (left) hand. That is, if I completely relax all the muscles in my supporting hand and wrist, I can tell the pressure from the sling is slightly rotating the gun to the right in a clockwise direction. It isn't massive but I can tell this is impacting my NPOA and I would like to get rid of it.

Any instructors care to guess what might be the cause? I know it's hard without actually seeing my position but I thought I would ask if there are common things to look for as I self diagnose.

Also getting ready to put some tech sights on a different 10/22 and see if I can get my next path with open sights. Can't wait to learn more, shoot more, and do another 'seed.

Thanks all.

Is your sling tight enough, and is your support elbow directly underneath the rifle or is it sticking out to the side? Those are the first things I would check.

 

[ol' Huff]

Can you have someone take a picture from the 9 oclock position low so we can see your position in profile and then another picture from above your support hand looking down? When I do position study these angles seem to give me the biggest help in diagnosis.

If not... What do you mean by torque? Is the sling trying to press your hand out from under the rifle? Can you describe where the rifle sits in your support hand? When you sling up and get into position how far forward do your place your support hand?



(p.s. This has really entertained me. Its like trying to drive a race car blind. All gun forums should have a section for position analysis.)

 

[dnurk]

The sling is definitely tight. Tight enough that I can actually feel my pulse in that bicep.

Support elbow is not directly under the rifle. It's out to the left of the gun a bit as that is what feels most comfortable. When I try and get it further under the rifle it feels like I'm putting a great deal of pressure on my elbow shoulder.

I will get my wife to take some pics later today. She already thinks I'm crazy for laying on the floor in the basement aiming at a sticker on the wall.

"What do you mean by torque? Is the sling trying to press your hand out from under the rifle? Can you describe where the rifle sits in your support hand? When you sling up and get into position how far forward do your place your support hand?" The torque is coming as the sling is pulling and turning the rifle every so slightly to my right. So if I completely relax and close my eyes, then open them, the rifle is canted a couple of degrees to the right. I'm positioning my support hand about as far forward as I can...index finger touching the sling swivel.

And Huff, I agree. Someone should start up an official "evaluate my position" thread. Hours of fun for everyone!

 

[yellowhousejake]

I generally live in the camp of the sling does not need to be that tight. The purpose of the sling is not cinch down the rifle, it is to brace the frame work you build with your arm. If a overly tight sling is required to maintain your position, it is a clear sign your position is not correct and you are not relaxing.

Three things come to my mind from your description.
1) Is the rifle sitting square on your wrist? The forearm of the rifle should bear equally on both bones of your wrist.
2) Is the front of the sling, between the stud and your wrist, pulling off to the right side (if you shoot right handed)? It should, if the sling is pulling straight back then your wrist is not centered under the rifle (see item one).
3) Is the sling too low on your upper arm? This is a funny one and really takes experience to see. When I shoot looped up I have the sling very high on my arm so that the sling does not pull the front of the rifle hard to the left. When I shoot with a hasty, I lower the sling a lot so that it pulls the butt of the rifle down and not left.

A good and proper position is where the rifle and your body are not being forced into any one place, but rather the rife, sling, and your body are resting together and tensions across all are equalized.

Huff is right, pictures would be a great help.

YHJ

 

[dnurk]

Here are a few pics. From the top down shot it appears my support arm is way out and not under the rifle. That could be the issue, yes? It doesn't feel "natural" for me to pull it further under the rifle. Could some other part of my position be hampering my ability to get the elbow under there more?

Any other thoughts/help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[yellowhousejake]

Your spine is crooked, keeping your upper body in position, swing your hips to the left. Try to envision a tee, your shoulders and your spine, the spine is perpendicular to the line of your shoulders. This will help a lot getting your elbow under the rifle.

Your support hand is not completely under the forearm of the rifle. You should be able to open your hand up and have the rifle not shift. Currently your fingers are doing the work. The rifle should be simply resting in your hand.

YHJ

 

[spitfire51]

You definitely need to get that elbow under the rifle. It will be uncomfortable at first, about as uncomfortable as it was the first time you tried this position at Appleseed. However, as you work on it, your shoulder muscles will stretch out and you'll be able to do it no problem.

Like we say at the events, uncomfortable is good, painful is bad.

 

[yellowhousejake]

If you still are not sure, I can get some pics of a good position and post them.

YHJ

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I suggest experimenting with the angle of your body to the target. I have to take a severe index to the target to really get my elbow under the rifle comfortably.

 

[dnurk]

If you still are not sure, I can get some pics of a good position and post them.

YHJ

I'd love to see some pics , Master YHJ.

That is definitely what was causing the torque. When I can get my arm, wrist, and elbow more in line with the barrel the sling is not pulling it from the side and trying to rotate it on the long axis.

I was messing around with my position just now and it seems that to get my support elbow right under the rifle I need to rotate my hips to the left a lot. So much that my spine is angled about 30 or 35 degrees right from the target line. Is that about right?

Thanks to all for your comments and help. I absolutely appreciate it.

And I just got 2 Appleseed gift certificates I bought online in the mail today. Figured I would take advantage before the price increase in 2013. Can't wait to use them.

 

[techres]

His spine might be less crooked if he got away from that wall. It would also let him take his heel out of his tush.

The room just can't be that small.

 

[spitfire51]

I was messing around with my position just now and it seems that to get my support elbow right under the rifle I need to rotate my hips to the left a lot. So much that my spine is angled about 30 or 35 degrees right from the target line. Is that about right?

Absolutely. We normally tell people to start with about a 30 degree index and then work from there to find what's best for them. Everybody's going to be different in that regard.

 

[yellowhousejake]

Prone position

Two views, pay attention to the angle of my spine in relation to my shoulders, and the position of my support hand under the forearm of the rifle.

I just finished putting mink oil on all my slings, so they are sticking on my shirt. It but should be higher, but kept pulling my shirt down. With a jacket or none knit shirt that is not a problem for me. I need bigger biceps

YHJ

 

[ol' Huff]

Mase's prone is getting better.

 

[ol' Huff]

I support YHJ and TBE and everyone else. YHJ suggested improving the T by adjusting your lower body, TBE suggested increase the angle of index to the target, these are the same thing. If that spine straightens up the soreness in the shoulder will ease sooner because it is not being stretched as far. It seems from the picture that there may be pressure on the Deltoid and Trapezius due to the odd angle. Spit is right in that indexing more will bring the rifle more across your body and put that elbow under.

Also, run that hand further forward so the sling swivel is in the web of the hand, and so the rifle sits on the hand above the wrist splitting the radius and the ulna. the position looks "high" for a Garand and you look a bit like you are propping yourself up with muscles. This is bad news for the M1 and sure way to get physical with the back of the receiver.

Man this was fun. We need a sticky called "evaluate my position"

 

[dnurk]

Thanks a ton for all the help, gentlemen. I have spent some additional time and by scooting my hips and legs around more to the left as advised it made a big difference in my ability to comfortably get my arm more under the rifle.

Will work on it for a few more weeks and post up an "after advice" for additional critique.