No Reciprocity with WI.

[TopDog]

I believe for some states its the trianing and others is because of a photo ID on the permit / license.

I wish it was like VA and was just a box they check on your Driver ID and I don't have to carry more than one that way. I got enough crap in my wallet between the parks, zoos, and museums that it would be nice to get ride of something they could just put on my ID I already have. My

+1 on everything in this post.

Of course no permit / license at all required in any state would be optimal. But....

Training and Photo on license I believe is a block to to other states. Plus I really wish they would just put a box on our DL and only issue a separate license if you don't have a DL.

 

[TopDog]

Training does not impact reciprocity. Look at the list, where in training mandatory Florida? But Pennsylvania is there?

It's not training.



It's not the photo as Florida has a photo.

These urban myths, or gun shop myths, about training and photos need to die.

Reciprocity lists are made by Deputy Attorney Generals who have instructions to "make a list, put about 25 states on it". The states are selected at random, sometimes by knowing people from those states.

From what I learned working on Texas there is absolutely no rational basis for these lists as they are often created out of thin air and do not have any logic behind them.

I would anticipate more states being added over the coming months.

Lets put it this way, IF training class and a Photo ID would ganrantee reciprocity, I would gladly consent.

 

[jgreiner]

Training does not impact reciprocity. Look at the list, where in training mandatory Florida? But Pennsylvania is there?

It's not training.



It's not the photo as Florida has a photo.

These urban myths, or gun shop myths, about training and photos need to die.

Reciprocity lists are made by Deputy Attorney Generals who have instructions to "make a list, put about 25 states on it". The states are selected at random, sometimes by knowing people from those states.

From what I learned working on Texas there is absolutely no rational basis for these lists as they are often created out of thin air and do not have any logic behind them.

I would anticipate more states being added over the coming months.

Then it's even more asinine than I thought. All the more reason for the national reciprocity act.

 

[singlestacksig]

it is possible that WI needs written reciprocity. And they just have not gotten the paperwork from Mitch yet.. IIRC Texas had a delay because of paperwork with Indiana..

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Training and Photo on license I believe is a block to to other states.

Top, I know that it would make sense to be this but it is not (turn off your logic and meditate on the stupid to become one with government). I know BoR doesn't like me saying this but back when I was waist deep in the Texas-Indiana reciprocity agreement at no time, either when TX DPS had it or when TX AG had it, was Indiana's lack of training or photo mentioned, not a peep.

DPS's attorney expressed great alarm over Indiana's universal recognition provision as "terrorists or some guy from Lithuania could carry in Texas if we recognized Indiana". Really, he said Lithuania. The same DPS attorney did not express any alarm over Indiana's lack of photo or training.

Then it's even more asinine than I thought.

You would expect what? Logic, reason, intelligence?

IIRC Texas had a delay because of paperwork with Indiana..

Texas had a delay because DPS fought me tooth and nail and the good people of Texas changed their statute taking reciprocity away from DPS and giving it to the Attorney General. Four and a half years it took.

 

[jgreiner]

Top, I know that it would make sense to be this but it is not (turn off your logic and meditate on the stupid to become one with government). I know BoR doesn't like me saying this but back when I was waist deep in the Texas-Indiana reciprocity agreement at no time, either when TX DPS had it or when TX AG had it, was Indiana's lack of training or photo mentioned, not a peep.

DPS's attorney expressed great alarm over Indiana's universal recognition provision as "terrorists or some guy from Lithuania could carry in Texas if we recognized Indiana". Really, he said Lithuania. The same DPS attorney did not express any alarm over Indiana's lack of photo or training.



You would expect what? Logic, reason, intelligence?

Yeah...I know...that's an awful lot to expect from Legislators and public officials.

 

[TopDog]

Top, I know that it would make sense to be this but it is not (turn off your logic and meditate on the stupid to become one with government). I know BoR doesn't like me saying this but back when I was waist deep in the Texas-Indiana reciprocity agreement at no time, either when TX DPS had it or when TX AG had it, was Indiana's lack of training or photo mentioned, not a peep.

DPS's attorney expressed great alarm over Indiana's universal recognition provision as "terrorists or some guy from Lithuania could carry in Texas if we recognized Indiana". Really, he said Lithuania. The same DPS attorney did not express any alarm over Indiana's lack of photo or training.



You would expect what? Logic, reason, intelligence?



Texas had a delay because DPS fought me tooth and nail and the good people of Texas changed their statute taking reciprocity away from DPS and giving it to the Attorney General. Four and a half years it took.

Man I believe you, its just crazy. Maybe a national act would put a stop to this reciprocity mess.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

As to national reciprocity, to give a lawyer's answer, it depends.

It depends on how the statute is drafted.

Favor the concept, fear the details.

 

[Mr. Habib]

Wisconsin's new carry law states that they will accept a license/permit from states with a similar background check as theirs. Arizona and Utah both do background checks at the federal level, Indiana does not. I believe that is the difference.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Arizona and Utah both do background checks at the federal level, Indiana does not. I believe that is the difference.

Guys, I appreciate you trying to bring some sense of Midwestern order to this, but government does not operate like this.

Again, Florida does a Level 2 (state and federal) background check and Wisconsin does not recognize Florida.

The list was composed out of thin air by a DAG who knew people from the listed states or from darts thrown at a map of the USA.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

BTW, as to this similar check cover story, not only does Florida do both, but states such as Virginia do both too.

I would think the number of states will expand over the next few months but the initial list was completely random.

 

[Mr. Habib]

Kirk, if you're right about Florida, and I have no reason to doubt you, then what allows their DOJ to deviate from the law as it is written?
From the WI DOJ site...
Out-of-state Licenses Recognized in Wisconsin
Licensees from any of the listed states will be recognized in Wisconsin as an out-of-state licensee per Sec. 175.60 (1)(g) Wis. Stats. This was determined based on the statutory requirement in s. 165.25 (12) that the listed state requires, or designates that the holder chose to submit, to a background search that is comparable to Wisconsin’s background check in s. 175.60 (1)(ac). Wisconsin’s background check includes only two components (1) A criminal history record search; (2) A search of the national instant criminal background check system (NICS). If another states background check meets the same requirements a Wisconsin resident must meet, the DOJ has recognized that state. The DOJ has tried to be as inclusive as possible and will periodically check and update the list if other states can be added. This list is current as of 10/18/11:

Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wyoming, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands

What is the point of having that language in the law if they are just going to ignore it?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

then what allows their DOJ to deviate from the law as it is written?

The Chinese say "three men make a tiger" (ask cobber or ATM, they will explain it).

Three government lawyers make the law.

The boss comes into the deputy's office.

"We need to get a reciprocity list together and I need this by Friday."

"You want me to run a survey of all 50 states and their individual background checks?"

"Yes and by noon, and I need it tomorrow the Chairman of the Law and Order Committee, Senator Shmuckatelli, is coming over for lunch and I'm asking for more funding."

"I can't do that."

"Well, pick some states and we'll make it happen."

 

[Phil502]

The Chinese say "three men make a tiger" (ask cobber or ATM, they will explain it).

Three government lawyers make the law.

The boss comes into the deputy's office.

"We need to get a reciprocity list together and I need this by Friday."

"You want me to run a survey of all 50 states and their individual background checks?"

"Yes and by noon, and I need it tomorrow the Chairman of the Law and Order Committee, Senator Shmuckatelli, is coming over for lunch and I'm asking for more funding."

"I can't do that."

"Well, pick some states and we'll make it happen."

3 men make a tiger explanation.

The Advent of Three Man Tiger « Three Man Tiger

 

[Bill of Rights]

In the first place, Kirk, thanks for the info about FL; I was not aware what kind of BGC they did. In the second, it wasn't that I didn't like you talking about the TX/IN mutual recognition thing. I half-teased you about your regular mention of it, as if you wanted EVERYONE to know YOU did it. Let me be clear here: especially being from Texas myself, I'm quite grateful to you for holding the appropriate feet to the fire and making that letter happen. ETA: Far be it from me to diminish anyone's accomplishments, and that was definitely a win in both your personal and Indiana's column. Thank you for doing it.

In the third place, based on what you said, you think the lists are made at random, but have only anecdotal data from one state to back that up, am I correct?
FWIW, I believe you to be correct that more states will be added, perhaps some removed, but I wonder: the WI DOJ had several months to do the 50-state survey, and a couple of weeks yet to the deadline they themselves posted, that they would publish the list of states 11/1/11, when the law is effective. I could do a 50-state survey in about three hours... maybe six to allow for gov't red tape and runarounds. Allow triple that for it being a gov't office doing the work, and split it up for the business day and it could be done in a week, especially since its really only a 47-state survey (50-WI, IL, and VT). Why not do it right from the outset? Never mind, rhetorical question.

FWIW, I made the attempt to get WV to recognize us a few years ago. After much red tape, my contact person being transferred to another office and no one telling me, and several calls to WV, I finally got a call one night and had about an hour conversation with ISP's attorney, who answered for me what I needed to know and gave me some reasoning I could accept and some facts I could not change that made it clear WV would not be accepting our LTCH any time soon.

There are presently 23 or 24 states that do not recognize our LTCH. You have experience DOING what needs to be done successfully. Allowing for the fact that some, like NY and CA will never accept us, would you be willing to put your talents to work convincing others like OH, WI, and MN that IN does not have cooties and they can safely play with us? I'd love to see us recognized by more states.

Thanks much,

Blessings,
Bill

 

[caverjamie]

This isn't really a big of a deal as some make it out to be. I'm still happier and more willing to spend my vacation time/money with Wisconsin than say, New York state. I have the UT and AZ permits...may only renew the AZ one though. I mean, I'm in the same boat with OH if I don't have an additional permit. So, at this point I'm just glad my existing permits that allow OH will also work for WI. Contrast that to some state like NY - I can't carry there on vacation no matter what kind of non resident permit I possess....unless of course, a national reciprocity bill is passed.

 

[opus1776]

Kirk,

Usually I look forward to things that you have written. But the gun shop rumors and speculation that you are spreading in this thread about how the list for WI was created really need to stop. Most of your supposition is based on an isolated case and not relevant to WI. The AG, who is a (R), for whatever reason is taking a narrow interpretation of the law. As for why some states are not on the list--- states require a written agreement and the paperwork has not been signed yet --- FL for example. Other states take a long time to answer back to a request for reciprocity and information.

My .


======================================
"Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" K. Moss

You can NEVER be too rich or too thin.

Life is not a journey, but a series of unplanned detours...

Perfection: is not a goal---it's a demanded expectation.

 

[buckstopshere]

You could get an AZ permit that would be accepted there as well as OH.

Unfortunately, AZ doesn't give me Minnesota. Utah will get me every state I need except for Kansas so I'll end up with an AZ permit as well.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

As for why some states are not on the list--- states require a written agreement and the paperwork has not been signed yet --- FL for example. Other states take a long time to answer back to a request for reciprocity and information.

No, states do not require a written agreement, e.g. Indiana, we recognize everyone around the world even if Wisconsin does not recognize us. On the Badger side, the statute ((18)) reads "may" do reciprocity agreements, not shall.

(Wisconsin) DOJ is required to establish, by rule, a list of states that issue a CCW license or permit that either requires [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]or [/FONT][/FONT]designates that the holder of the license or permit chose to submit to a background check that is comparable to the check conducted under Wisconsin law. [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Wis. Stat. § 165.25(12). [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Wisconsin DOJ gets to establish by rule a list of states that they will recognize. It is obvious that Wisconsin pulled their list from the air, Exhibit A "Florida".[/FONT][/FONT]

Angry residents of Florida put their feet down in Occupy Madison:

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

But the gun shop rumors and speculation that you are spreading in this thread about how the list for WI was created really need to stop.

[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Ya got me, there is no Senator Shmuckatelli.[/FONT]

In retrospect, I should be more obvious when I am being a wisenheimer.

I had a girlfriend who asked me to raise my hand in saying something sarcastic. I'll make it more open and obvious. Sorry for any confusion, Opus.[/FONT]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

In the third place, based on what you said, you think the lists are made at random, but have only anecdotal data from one state to back that up, am I correct?

Right, my opinion, and you know what they say about those.

We need a colour for opinion.

. You have experience DOING what needs to be done successfully.

Just because I go to Texas a bunch. If you want me to I can work on Wisconsin but that may require a political solution.