Never talk to the police , period

[Titanium_Frost]

I think you're arguing in favor of my argument. You, personally, know the police can use certain methods to obtain permission/access. You are NOT ignorant or misinformed, you know your rights and can exercise them in this regard. That was the gist of my argument. Maybe someone could be persuaded into giving permission, but at least part of the weight of that decision should rest with them.

I'm going to have to agree with this. If you are merely convinced to give up your rights they are not infringed. However if you refuse to authorize a search and the LEO does it anyway without RAS then your rights are infringed.

If they detain you without cause to get you to cave, your rights are violated. Lying is ****ty but that is why you need to understand and assert your rights at all times and in all circumstances.

 

[Mackey]

Very interesting thread. I've seen the original video, but with the Ayoob video juxtaposed with it, it's really got me thinking ....

Here's some considerations:
A MAJOR component being left out of both videos is: What's your relationship with the police force in question? You simply have to take that into consideration. Just think about it, if you are a beloved, retire cop from the force who first rolls up .... Do you think you might be in a better position? Or what if you've had run ins with that police force (or heaven forbid, the responding officer)??
Now, say it's neutral, and you cop an attitude?
And then throw into the mix: What's the perp's relationship to the force? ... maybe he's known and either hated or loved by that PD.

As all real life situations, there's many many more considerations than can be handled in 2 youtube videos. You're better off if you have some intelligence and/or can think on your feet in stressful situations.

As people interested in self defense, you'd better get your strategy nailed down before something happens. This is probably just as important as whether you're victorious or not in the gun fight, cause it will define who you are and where you live in the future: Joe the man who defended himself (who's story ends up in a gun magazine blurb) or Joe, inmate 389237.

Great thread.

 

[EvilBlackGun]

MIRANDA.

"Anything you DO say WILL be used AGAINST YOU." And "you have the RIGHT to remain silent." Keep your recorder rolling. Do you think that the fuzz would let YOU read the Miranda to THEM? "Sir, you have the right to remain silent; if you choose to give up that right, anything you say will be used against you in a court of law... "

Its called 'Innocent until PROVEN guilty' not 'suspicion of guilt until proven innocent.'

It doesn't matter who THINKS you are guilty, it matters what they can prove. No info, no case against you.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Very interesting thread. I've seen the original video, but with the Ayoob video juxtaposed with it, it's really got me thinking ....

Here's some considerations:
A MAJOR component being left out of both videos is: What's your relationship with the police force in question? You simply have to take that into consideration. Just think about it, if you are a beloved, retire cop from the force who first rolls up .... Do you think you might be in a better position? Or what if you've had run ins with that police force (or heaven forbid, the responding officer)??
Now, say it's neutral, and you cop an attitude?
And then throw into the mix: What's the perp's relationship to the force? ... maybe he's known and either hated or loved by that PD.

As all real life situations, there's many many more considerations than can be handled in 2 youtube videos. You're better off if you have some intelligence and/or can think on your feet in stressful situations.

As people interested in self defense, you'd better get your strategy nailed down before something happens. This is probably just as important as whether you're victorious or not in the gun fight, cause it will define who you are and where you live in the future: Joe the man who defended himself (who's story ends up in a gun magazine blurb) or Joe, inmate 389237.

Great thread.

There was a guy here in Evansville named Ira that had some good buddies in the Sheriffs department here in Vanderburgh Co. They told him what to say and he is still in jail awaiting trial for murder.

DO NOT TALK TO COPS EVER!

 

[wagyu52]

The problem with this view of never, ever speaking to police is that you may need to present an affirmative defense, and vital evidence may be lost unless you point it out to officers and identify witnesses who can corroborate your account of what transpired. While it is best not to volunteer too much, it can be just as harmful to say nothing at all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4

Massad Ayoob, who can argue with that?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Let me ask this to you guys that want to talk to police after a self defense shooting:

Do you really think you will be able to think clearly after the adrenaline rush and stress? What if your initial story and your later story don't match?

A grand jury would indict you in a heartbeat and a prosecutor would eat you alive on the stand.

 

[Excalibur]

If I get into a self defense shooting, I really hope it's in a town where I know the cops on patrol because that helps when they roll up

 

[Ted]

In nearly every incident that I've recalled in the past, the shooter was arrested at the scene, regardless of the perceived circumstances.

There is no reason to believe that any of us won't be arrested, even if we have sound and video readily available to exonerate any us of criminal action.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

In nearly every incident that I've recalled in the past, the shooter was arrested at the scene, regardless of the perceived circumstances.

There is no reason to believe that any of us won't be arrested, even if we have sound and video readily available to exonerate any us of criminal action.

Interesting. The recent self defense homocides in the news have been the exact opposite. Arrest was not made until after a Grand Jury indictment several days/weeks later.

I think it is very unlikely to be formally charged and arrested on the spot. Remember police must have PC to make an arrest and once they do have limited time to build a case against you. They would much rather build a case against you with evidence, witness accounts and crucify you in the media before making their case and arresting you. Then the hard part is over.

 

[smccabe17]

A couple of years ago I did a FoF class with Tactical Response in Seymour. Alot of the Seymour PD was in the class. One of the drills ended with a police car coming in with officers coming at you after the incident. Even though it was all role playing and knowing I wasn't going to get in any trouble at all, I still couldn't think straight or hardly hear anything. I know I have to keep my mouth shut because I don't know what will be going on in my mind.

 

[IndyDave1776]

He's right though. Voluntarily surrendering one's rights by refusing to exercise them--even if out of ignorance and/or a misplaced reverence for LE's authority--isn't an abuse of one's rights.

No, but I would argue that LEOs lying about their authority is fraud and should be prosecuted as such.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

No, but I would argue that LEOs lying about their authority is fraud and should be prosecuted as such.

However correct you may be morally, the current laws in this country indicate otherwise and have been held up in court numerous times.

Police have the authority to lie in the performance of their duties (arresting you, removing you from property or fining you) and it is our job to prevent that from making us give up our rights.

 

[Lodogg2221]

Wow. Talk about ignorance. Theres a LOT of it in this thread.
So, the cops can coerce a statement huh? And what happens when that comes out? Statement gone. Trial over. Charges dropped. Unless there is more evidence, and if they are trying that, which Ive not seen actually happen in a LONG time, they probably dont have any other evidence anyway.
Cops can threaten? See above.
Cops can step all over and violate your rights? See above.

You all need to get out more, and actually pay attention to present day happenings, and not old TV shows from the 60s. Maybe look up a few real laws while you are at it.

LEOs can NOT mislead or mis-represent anything. If they do, and it ALWAYS comes out, case over. Any mishandled evidence, gone.

Do they all know every law inside and out? No, no-one does. They make mistakes, because you do to, all humans do.
If they do, and you dont do anything to correct it, stop whining about it happening.

If you are in a shooting, and want to say nothing, fine, have at it, but to believe it will help anything is ludicrous. You need to let them know the basics. Dont go overdoing it, but there are obvious things that should be addressed at that time, not later.

And to think every cop running around has his own personal attorney, and a dept attorney, etc, is also ridiculous.
Again, you all that think that kind of stuff really need to get out more and interact with people face to face once in a while....

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Wow. Talk about ignorance. Theres a LOT of it in this thread.
So, the cops can coerce a statement huh? And what happens when that comes out? Statement gone. Trial over. Charges dropped. Unless there is more evidence, and if they are trying that, which Ive not seen actually happen in a LONG time, they probably dont have any other evidence anyway.
Cops can threaten? See above.
Cops can step all over and violate your rights? See above.

You all need to get out more, and actually pay attention to present day happenings, and not old TV shows from the 60s. Maybe look up a few real laws while you are at it.

LEOs can NOT mislead or mis-represent anything. If they do, and it ALWAYS comes out, case over. Any mishandled evidence, gone.

Do they all know every law inside and out? No, no-one does. They make mistakes, because you do to, all humans do.
If they do, and you dont do anything to correct it, stop whining about it happening.

If you are in a shooting, and want to say nothing, fine, have at it, but to believe it will help anything is ludicrous. You need to let them know the basics. Dont go overdoing it, but there are obvious things that should be addressed at that time, not later.

And to think every cop running around has his own personal attorney, and a dept attorney, etc, is also ridiculous.
Again, you all that think that kind of stuff really need to get out more and interact with people face to face once in a while....

Who are you even talking to? You make a lot of accusations about things I haven't even seen in this thread, make a whole lot of opinion sound like fact and have nothing to back it up with and let's not forget derogatory accusations of ignorance and hermitage.

What are your qualifications big boy?

 

[serpicostraight]

Wow. Talk about ignorance. Theres a LOT of it in this thread.
So, the cops can coerce a statement huh? And what happens when that comes out? Statement gone. Trial over. Charges dropped. Unless there is more evidence, and if they are trying that, which Ive not seen actually happen in a LONG time, they probably dont have any other evidence anyway.
Cops can threaten? See above.
Cops can step all over and violate your rights? See above.

You all need to get out more, and actually pay attention to present day happenings, and not old TV shows from the 60s. Maybe look up a few real laws while you are at it.

LEOs can NOT mislead or mis-represent anything. If they do, and it ALWAYS comes out, case over. Any mishandled evidence, gone.

Do they all know every law inside and out? No, no-one does. They make mistakes, because you do to, all humans do.
If they do, and you dont do anything to correct it, stop whining about it happening.

If you are in a shooting, and want to say nothing, fine, have at it, but to believe it will help anything is ludicrous. You need to let them know the basics. Dont go overdoing it, but there are obvious things that should be addressed at that time, not later.

And to think every cop running around has his own personal attorney, and a dept attorney, etc, is also ridiculous.
Again, you all that think that kind of stuff really need to get out more and interact with people face to face once in a while....

you wear a badge by any chance?

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

 

[Lodogg2221]

Who are you even talking to? You make a lot of accusations about things I haven't even seen in this thread, make a whole lot of opinion sound like fact and have nothing to back it up with and let's not forget derogatory accusations of ignorance and hermitage.

What are your qualifications big boy?

Go back and re-read it then, because this thread is where all of that came from.
Which ones are opinions? Never mind, from your other posts I can guess which ones you think are opinions...

BTW, I didnt know something I wrote earlier could be construed as speaking to someones place of residence, but Ill be more careful in the future and be sure to check my verbiage with the phrase police first...assuming they arent lumped into the same group as the rest of the police....

Sorry, I didnt know I needed qualifications to post here. My bad.

Carry on....

 

[repeter1977]

Well, to each, their own opinion. I work as an MP, and although I have not worked the road for abit, I had stated my opinion before. If you think that as soon as the cops show up, you want to remain silent, well, thats your right, but then investigations go on based on initial assumptions. If you want to get a couple thoughts in, like, he was trying to kill me, or she stabbed me and i need an ambulance, or even, she stabbed me and put the knife back in the purse (which I may have seen), then probably a good idea to take a slight chance. But, if you think your lawyer is the only one that can speak for you, go for it.
As for the person posting, asking the cops what they say can be used against them in courts, well, in trials that I have been to, it has been. Have to say, it was hard to refute the video evidence though. And everything we said was then taken apart, and tried to use against us as well.

 

[Lodogg2221]

you wear a badge by any chance?

So because I defend them I am one?

Try reading the Constitution some time.
For all the bandying about some do here on how things are their Constitution Rights, Im amazed that people dont realize that everyone is bound by that same Constitution.
Its obvious they read what pertains exclusively to them, and the rest that pertains to everyone else too.
Its not a one way pass, its meant to restrict and allow at the same time, to protect in many ways.

90% of cops do just that, and so many here hate on every single one of them. I know a number of them. I know of a couple bad ones, but they arent out on the street anymore anyway.

I wonder what kinds of bad experiences you all have personally had to have such a dim view of them. Some people hate because someone else told them to, some do it because they caused a problem and were given grief, and some dont need any reason.
But if you (any of you) havent personally witnessed scores of awful cops, why all the hate?

Someone mentioned Zimmerman, and used that as an example of not talking to the cops. Thats ignorant, as an example, because after he talked to them, they LET HIM GO! It was the Attorney General that brought charges.

You can do whatever you want, but at the least use facts, not made up BS that you saw on a show somewhere or that some guy you know who knows another guy told you happened to his buddy...

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Go back and re-read it then, because this thread is where all of that came from.
Which ones are opinions? Never mind, from your other posts I can guess which ones you think are opinions...

BTW, I didnt know something I wrote earlier could be construed as speaking to someones place of residence, but Ill be more careful in the future and be sure to check my verbiage with the phrase police first...assuming they arent lumped into the same group as the rest of the police....

Sorry, I didnt know I needed qualifications to post here. My bad.

Carry on....

Just what I thought. Absolutely no substance, just insults.

I'm always up for a good argument but not from someone who acts like a child.