Nazi prison guard found living in U.K.

[NYFelon]

@ Bond281

lol. It wasn't just Jews he Nazis killed either. As a crossbreed I'd have been pretty high up on their list of folks to get hurled in the stoves. Fairly sure there's a distinct lack of NSDAP sympathy in my perspective.

Though Your purple shines through loud and clear.

 

[Bond 281]

As we are perfectly capable of doing more than one thing at once, I don't see a problem with being concerned with all kinds of war criminals - present and past.

You seem to have some other reason or some strongly felt issue at stake here.

What is it that makes this an important issue for you?

It's not particularly important to me. I'm not German or Jewish, I probably have some family that fought in the war but that's the extent of it. I don't like the fact that people are demonizing a man that there's no evidence against just because of a uniform he wore. I also don't like the fact that people treat Nazis as some sort of mythical creature instead of men. I think it ruins the lesson to be learned.

Techre: It's partially devil's advocate, and I also the reasons listed above. As for forgetting...simply remembering that something happened doesn't do a damn bit of good. Remembering WHY it happened is the only practical point. When we foster a blind hatred for Nazis instead of understanding how the German peoples came to become so bad is when we've really lost the importance of remembering. As for the clamoring, no, we aren't really clamoring for Russian prosecutions. I'm not saying that we shouldn't, simply that we aren't, and haven't. As for the American instances, if you'll see the second post with quotes, you'll see that in a few cases there haven't been prosecutions.

And I wasn't equating Auschwitz and Guantanamo, I was equating the Holocaust with all the other genocides throughout history.

I don't know why you people seem to think that I'm saying we shouldn't prosecute war criminals. I said we shouldn't prosecute this particular guy, seeing as how there's no shred of evidence against him. And yes, even though I think our focus should be on our own current affairs, I don't think that we should completely ignore going after other war criminals. I'm just saying that instead of going "OMG THE HOLOCAUST WAS SO SUPER BAD AND NAZIS ARE EVIL MONSTERS WE HAVE TO TRACK AND KILL THEM ALL AND HANG THE DEAD ONES FOR FOR GOOD MEASURE CAUSE THEY'RE SO SUPER EVIL. NEVAR FORGET!!!" we should instead prosecute MEN for criminal acts and learn the lesson from the Germans.

 

[Bond 281]

I respectfully disagree, mostly. The system is the solution. The system allows for the investigation and prosecution 70 years later, so there should be some follow through.

I hedge in this respect: if the prosecutor said, "WTF? Dude's almost dead anyway. Let him die on his own, and leave the issue between him and his Maker." That is a reasonable reaction, and supported by the system ("prosecutorial discretion").

In this case, though, I think a proper investigation and prosecution is appropriate, in part to remind the world that parts of the civilized world really don't care how much time passes. Mladic was recently arrested after what - about 15 years?

Yes, there is a point of diminishing return. But some things are worth doing without regard to the passage of time.

I have never said that the guy should get a pass because he's old. Scotland Yard already looked into this guy and isn't charging him. I'm sure we could set up a war tribunal and spend years combing through accounts looking for some shred of evidence against this man. That is what I think would be a waste of time, and not worth doing.

And I stand by the statement that Nazi war crimes aren't all that relevant to us today. I think we ought to be more concerned with modern American crimes than old foreign ones. (And before people read more into that, that doesn't mean we should ignore Nazi war crimes.)

 

[Bond 281]

@ Bond281

lol. It wasn't just Jews he Nazis killed either. As a crossbreed I'd have been pretty high up on their list of folks to get hurled in the stoves. Fairly sure there's a distinct lack of NSDAP sympathy in my perspective.

Though Your purple shines through loud and clear.

Lol glad it did.

People do tend to forget about all the other dozens of types of people the Nazis imprisoned. Another issue that arose from demonizing it quite so much I think.

 

[dross]

I think the Holocaust was unique for several reasons.

1. It ocurred in a "civilized" country in modern times.
2. It targeted (among others) an entire group of people with whom there had not been a history of violent conflict.
3. The totalitarian nature of the perpetrators.
4. They also initiated large scale war against much of the world and looked for a while like they might win - which made them scarier.
5. The cold and systemic way they went about the killing.

I agree with you that the lesson of the Nazis is not that they were subhuman monsters, but that regular people could act legitimately as subhuman monsters, withe the official sanction of the state.

This is why to me it is very important to continue to hunt these people down, and why it is still relevant.

As to this particular guy, as I said upthread, I don't know if he's guilty or not. If he's not guilty - and wearing the uniform isn't enough - then I hope he is left alone to live out his life. If he is guilty, I have no problem with his punishment.

 

[Bond 281]

I think the Holocaust was unique for several reasons.

1. It ocurred in a "civilized" country in modern times.
2. It targeted (among others) an entire group of people with whom there had not been a history of violent conflict.
3. The totalitarian nature of the perpetrators.
4. They also initiated large scale war against much of the world and looked for a while like they might win - which made them scarier.
5. The cold and systemic way they went about the killing.

I agree with you that the lesson of the Nazis is not that they were subhuman monsters, but that regular people could act legitimately as subhuman monsters, withe the official sanction of the state.

This is why to me it is very important to continue to hunt these people down, and why it is still relevant.

As to this particular guy, as I said upthread, I don't know if he's guilty or not. If he's not guilty - and wearing the uniform isn't enough - then I hope he is left alone to live out his life. If he is guilty, I have no problem with his punishment.

Pretty much all I've been arguing is

the lesson of the Nazis is not that they were subhuman monsters, but that regular people could act legitimately as subhuman monsters, withe the official sanction of the state.

and

If he's not guilty - and wearing the uniform isn't enough - then I hope he is left alone to live out his life.

Some people are especially concerned with the continued hunt for Nazis. I'm not. I think current issues are more important. I think that's the only thing most people disagree with me about here.

Edit: I also agree that the Holocaust was a prime example of unjustified, organized genocide. Yet, when people give it so much emotional importance compared to all the other mass genocides, I can't quite agree with that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

It's not particularly important to me. I'm not German or Jewish, I probably have some family that fought in the war but that's the extent of it. I don't like the fact that people are demonizing a man that there's no evidence against just because of a uniform he wore. I also don't like the fact that people treat Nazis as some sort of mythical creature instead of men. I think it ruins the lesson to be learned.

Techre: It's partially devil's advocate, and I also the reasons listed above. As for forgetting...simply remembering that something happened doesn't do a damn bit of good. Remembering WHY it happened is the only practical point. When we foster a blind hatred for Nazis instead of understanding how the German peoples came to become so bad is when we've really lost the importance of remembering. As for the clamoring, no, we aren't really clamoring for Russian prosecutions. I'm not saying that we shouldn't, simply that we aren't, and haven't. As for the American instances, if you'll see the second post with quotes, you'll see that in a few cases there haven't been prosecutions.

And I wasn't equating Auschwitz and Guantanamo, I was equating the Holocaust with all the other genocides throughout history.

I don't know why you people seem to think that I'm saying we shouldn't prosecute war criminals. I said we shouldn't prosecute this particular guy, seeing as how there's no shred of evidence against him. And yes, even though I think our focus should be on our own current affairs, I don't think that we should completely ignore going after other war criminals. I'm just saying that instead of going "OMG THE HOLOCAUST WAS SO SUPER BAD AND NAZIS ARE EVIL MONSTERS WE HAVE TO TRACK AND KILL THEM ALL AND HANG THE DEAD ONES FOR FOR GOOD MEASURE CAUSE THEY'RE SO SUPER EVIL. NEVAR FORGET!!!" we should instead prosecute MEN for criminal acts and learn the lesson from the Germans.

That "shred of evidence" you're looking for is, in fact, the uniform her wore combined with the place he wore it. Let's say he didn't commit the actual crimes. The is ZERO doubt that he witnessed them. Them being: the shootings, the hangings, the thefts, the transportation of people to their ultimate end. These things were done by the people wearing the same uniform this guy wore. He is accountable. If he is not, then the first time a guy wearing the same uniform I do commits a crime against the public, that I witness and KNOW to be wrong, I want a "free" pass...

 

[Redemption]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

1. You could be SS and not serve under Hitler
2. There was no possibility that Heydrich could have changed the outcome of the war.
3. World Jew Illustrated? Not familiar with that? Since you apparently are making the claim that the Jews are creating a revisionist history in regards to the Third Reich, I'm going to assume things like Kristallnacht, The Warsaw Ghetto, the Holocaust, the Malmedy Massacre, and a laundry list of other crimes didn't happen?

 

[Bond 281]

He is accountable. If he is not, then the first time a guy wearing the same uniform I do commits a crime against the public, that I witness and KNOW to be wrong, I want a "free" pass...

How do you not have one? You are a cop right?

As far as culpability goes, of course he was at least witness to crimes. Does that mean he should hang for it? Especially in a wartime scenario when their orders were to do these things? Should he have arrested his commanding officer for following orders? Desert the army in war and get hanged for that? I'm not really sure what reasonable course of action a low ranking soldier from a conquered country could take that would somehow vindicate him. I'm not going to condone hanging a man because he saw something that was out of his control to stop. Sorry, that's not enough of a reason.

 

[T.Lex]

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

Waitress? Check, please! I'm outta here...

 

[techres]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

So that I am clear, you are saying that:

1. Jews won WWII.
2. Germany could have defeated America with just a change in one leader.
3. That American soldiers today are at the same risk of false or overblown accusation by Muslims as Nazi soldiers are by Jews?

Just making absolutely sure before I respond on each point.

 

[dross]

Waitress? Check, please! I'm outta here...

"Now youse can't leave."

Warning: Language

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=iw&v=u2_twxkXCUU

 

[CarmelHP]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

I have rarely read anything so demented on here, and that's saying something.

 

[Kutnupe14]

How do you not have one? You are a cop right?

As far as culpability goes, of course he was at least witness to crimes. Does that mean he should hang for it? Especially in a wartime scenario when their orders were to do these things? Should he have arrested his commanding officer for following orders? Desert the army in war and get hanged for that? I'm not really sure what reasonable course of action a low ranking soldier from a conquered country could take that would somehow vindicate him. I'm not going to condone hanging a man because he saw something that was out of his control to stop. Sorry, that's not enough of a reason.

I haven't called for his death. At the very least he should be deported back to where he came from, since he entered the UK under false pretenses.

His options? Leave.... if death is the penalty if caught. Better that than being complicit to the horrors around you.

For example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8244186.stm

 

[techres]

As far as culpability goes, of course he was at least witness to crimes.

Example 1: Dude happens to be at a murder during a burglary. He happens to be standing there when it happens.

^That is a witness.

Example 2: Dude happens to be at a murder during a burglary. He happens to be standing there when it happens. He also happens to be wearing a ski mask and came in through the window. He will later claim that he did not sign up for anything more than stealing a TV. He is no murderer and had no way of knowing that old lady was home or his buddy would hit her so hard.

^This is a co-conspirator who will be prosecuted as a murder. (Seen that prosecution happen with my own eyes.)

You can't sign up for evil light and then be surprised at evil big...

 

[Kutnupe14]

I have rarely read anything so demented on here, and that's saying something.

Yeah, that was pretty anti-se..... I mean harsh

 

[KG1]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

As if this thread hasn't been complicated enough..Whammo!

 

[Bond 281]

Example 1: Dude happens to be at a murder during a burglary. He happens to be standing there when it happens.

^That is a witness.

Example 2: Dude happens to be at a murder during a burglary. He happens to be standing there when it happens. He also happens to be wearing a ski mask and came in through the window. He will later claim that he did not sign up for anything more than stealing a TV. He is no murderer and had no way of knowing that old lady was home or his buddy would hit her so hard.

^This is a co-conspirator who will be prosecuted as a murder. (Seen that prosecution happen with my own eyes.)

You can't sign up for evil light and then be surprised at evil big...

There's also a difference between signing up for the military and joining a burglary.

 

[Scutter01]

I would have bee SS more than likely an officer. I probably wouldn't have served under Hitler.....maybe Heydrich. Hitler was good at speaking, that is all. We assassinated Heydrich, though. If we hadn't, we would all speak German.

This is a case of the world jew illustrated.....only the winners write the history books. When the Muslims take over, there will be plenty of American soldiers being hunted down and murdered after they take care of the jews-- Americans that were just following orders.

So that I am clear, you are saying that:

1. Jews won WWII.
2. Germany could have defeated America with just a change in one leader.
3. That American soldiers today are at the same risk of false or overblown accusation by Muslims as Nazi soldiers are by Jews?

Just making absolutely sure before I respond on each point.

The staff is eagerly awaiting the response to this as well. I, personally, would like to hear a broader explanation of how you would have been an Nazi SS officer.