More info on shooting someone to prevent a punch

[MikeDVB]

I don't have to prove what someone is thinking. I can only act on, and can only testify to, what I can observe and conclusions rationally drawn from those conclusions. If I square up with you, crack my neck, ball my fists up, raise my hands into a boxer's stance and start closing with you those are all things you can see. Those are all things you can testify to seeing. A rational conclusion based on that body language is I am getting ready to punch you. If I threaten you with a pistol and have the weapon in my hand, its not legally required to guess if I'm bluffing or not. I don't have to take the first punch in the first scenario any more than I have to take the first shot in the second just to see what you were thinking. A reasonably prudent person in your hypothetical situation would believe an attack was imminent.

Now again, I think if you shoot someone for an imminent attack of a punch, you're going to have a steep uphill battle to justify it as reasonable.

Well said - QFT.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If what you people are saying about what is an attack is true, then why is it if I lay my hand on a cops arm I'm arrested for assault?

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here in context to this thread. Battery (not assault, which doesn't exist in Indiana's state laws) is the touching of anyone in a rude, angry, or insolent manner at its lowest level to what many would consider attempted murder at its high end. It doesn't matter if you grab a cop or a plumber, battery is battery. It may be an enhanced offense depending on who the victim is (LEO engaged in official duty, child under 14, pregnant woman, but they are all battery.

 

[MikeDVB]

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here in context to this thread. Battery (not assault, which doesn't exist in Indiana's state laws) is the touching of anyone in a rude, angry, or insolent manner at its lowest level to what many would consider attempted murder at its high end. It doesn't matter if you grab a cop or a plumber, battery is battery. It may be an enhanced offense depending on who the victim is (LEO engaged in official duty, child under 14, pregnant woman, but they are all battery.

The difference is that the police officer can arrest you right then and there for the battery while your plumber generally will not attempt to arrest you if you batter them - although they may call the police.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Home invasions have a different set of rules and is not what's under discussion. IC 35-41-3-2 specifically provides for an intrusion against the home or occupied vehicle as a special circumstance.

But all situations of deadly force being faced by an innocent is encompassed within 35-41-3-2. I refer to it as the "Reasonable Force Statute", not the "Castle Doctrine" or the "Stand Your Ground Law" or the "Home Invasion Code".

 

[YoungMilsurpGuy]

But all situations of deadly force being faced by an innocent is encompassed within 35-41-3-2. I refer to it as the "Reasonable Force Statute", not the "Castle Doctrine" or the "Stand Your Ground Law" or the "Home Invasion Code".

Sorry, Im a bit new to this, but legally speaking, say a guy or his buddies try to hit you in your car or drag you out you can legally draw on them? This summer Im going to be going to school at IUN and going to be driving through gary, so I want to be clear on this.

 

[Yup!]

I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but this jury didn't think he was in fear for his life from a punch.

US Airman Stands His Ground In Florida, Sentenced To 25 Years | Roland Martin Reports

 

[Denny347]

The difference is that the police officer can arrest you right then and there for the battery while your plumber generally will not attempt to arrest you if you batter them - although they may call the police.

Battery without injury is NOT a misdemeanor exception to the law. Meaning, an officer MUST witness a misdemeanor in order to outright arrest for it UNLESS it is a misdemeanor exception. Some of those are hit and run, carry w/o a license, battery with injury, domestic battery, etc. So if someone "batters" me without injury I can arrest them because I witnessed it. If someone battered you w/o injury and you call 911, I cannot arrest since I did not witness it. It will have to be screened by a prosecutor for charges.

 

[public servant]

If what you people are saying about what is an attack is true, then why is it if I lay my hand on a cops arm I'm arrested for assault?

It's better to be arrested by one than jack-booted by 6.

 

[Fixer]

I think as this becomes a bigger problem and more people are seriously injured, you will have a better chance of not getting into legal trouble. If you do get charged over it, it is good to have as many examples as possible to illustrate to the uneducated about the severity of a single blow. If you can articulate YOUR actions for deadly force to the jury you have a greater chance of winning the case. The more examples the better picture it paints. True for any self defense shooting. You can not assume the jury knows what you know, if they did they might react the same in that situation.

 

[Roland of Gilead]

I think as this becomes a bigger problem and more people are seriously injured, you will have a better chance of not getting into legal trouble. If you do get charged over it, it is good to have as many examples as possible to illustrate to the uneducated about the severity of a single blow. If you can articulate YOUR actions for deadly force to the jury you have a greater chance of winning the case. The more examples the better picture it paints. True for any self defense shooting. You can not assume the jury knows what you know, if they did they might react the same in that situation.

What becomes a bigger problem?


This thread is not about "the knock out game" this thread is about whether or not to use deadly force on a person that wants to punch you in the face.

A 40 year old woman can establish the right to use deadly force if a man is going to punch her in the face, way before 40 year old man can use deadly force.

You should be scared for your life if someone is trying to hit you in the face,( it could knock one out or kill you) you should fight for your life with out question, but shooting someone in a fist fight could end with you time in prison.

It is not okay to shoot people that want to punch you.

You should plan on going to jail for a night or two if one uses violence to defend thy self.

STFU and call a good lawyer.

Someone punching does not mean you can shoot unless there is a disparity force.

 

[CathyInBlue]

If you can articulate YOUR actions for deadly force to the jury you have a greater chance of winning the case.

It helps if you don't have a judge actively sabotaging your defense by interfering with this very process and denying you your statutory affirmative defense.

 

[2ndAMEND]

Is it safe to assume that physical altercations only occur with thugs ? What do they look like so I can be more aware of them?

 

[2ndAMEND]

If the attacks are taking place from behind and you aren't aware of your surroundings as you should then your gun is useless and always has been..including your training. If your only means of self defense with one attacker facing you is to resolve to a gun then someone failed you in life..multiple attackers is another story..and if that's the scenario your chances of getting off or avoiding charges completely are increased.

 

[Fixer]

What becomes a bigger problem?


This thread is not about "the knock out game" this thread is about whether or not to use deadly force on a person that wants to punch you in the face.

A 40 year old woman can establish the right to use deadly force if a man is going to punch her in the face, way before 40 year old man can use deadly force.

You should be scared for your life if someone is trying to hit you in the face,( it could knock one out or kill you) you should fight for your life with out question, but shooting someone in a fist fight could end with you time in prison.

It is not okay to shoot people that want to punch you.

You should plan on going to jail for a night or two if one uses violence to defend thy self.

STFU and call a good lawyer.

Someone punching does not mean you can shoot unless there is a disparity force.

I was under the impression that this was in connection to the growing problem of this knock out game. I agree with disparity of force, but I am a bigger guy but not a fighter by any means. I have no idea what the person has on them in a pocket or maybe a CCW,also unknown is how good of a fighter is he, maybe he is an MMA fighter.

If an attacker takes a swing at me and misses, because I don't let someone that close to me on average unless I know them, and I draw my weapon as he continues his attack. If the sight of my gun does not stop the threat then I would not hesitate to fire. I have a weapon and if he does land a punch it could knock me out and then he has a gun to finish the job if he pleases. There are so many variables that you have to consider, that there is no one set of rules that you can apply. There is more to consider than just someone throwing one punch at your head. How do we know this is going to be one punch. I am not that gifted to be able to read his mind. I will assume that he has more deadly intentions. Who would be right? Not every scenario has a right or wrong answer, my point was that you have to make sure the jury understands your thought process and not just expect them to see it the way you did.

And hopefully you do not get a judge that is already prejudiced against you from the start. Any time you have to use your gun you run the risk of things not going your way. The more you prepare for after the shot the better chance you will have.

 

[Fixer]

Rereading the OP, I would be skeptical of someone who shot a person because they were going to throw a punch at me. My Spidey sense is not that good yet and would have a hard time knowing far enough ahead of time that I was about to be punched in the face to pull my weapon and fire. Intent would be hard to establish before or after a single punch attempt.

 

[Sgtusmc]

How about this situation in regards to disparity of force. I was in it a few summer's ago. Some BM staring at me while I was in my own yard felt disrespected that I returned his stare. He came back around the block with almost 20 BM's in tow all spread out in the street. The main BM tried goading me into a fight. At the time, I was unarmed except for my knife. I stood on my property in the middle of the yard, said nothing in response to their remarks and just kept my eye on what was going down. They eventually got tired of trying to intimidate me and walked around the block.

So the disparity of force equation I'm curious of is if you're armed against one assailant who is bearing down on you aggressively with nothing in his hands (apparently), with a backup team of several other potential assailants, how does that equate? One apparently unarmed yet aggressive man may not pose an imminent threat, but 20 together would, would it not?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How about this situation in regards to disparity of force. I was in it a few summer's ago. Some BM staring at me while I was in my own yard felt disrespected that I returned his stare. He came back around the block with almost 20 BM's in tow all spread out in the street. The main BM tried goading me into a fight. At the time, I was unarmed except for my knife. I stood on my property in the middle of the yard, said nothing in response to their remarks and just kept my eye on what was going down. They eventually got tired of trying to intimidate me and walked around the block.

So the disparity of force equation I'm curious of is if you're armed against one assailant who is bearing down on you aggressively with nothing in his hands (apparently), with a backup team of several other potential assailants, how does that equate? One apparently unarmed yet aggressive man may not pose an imminent threat, but 20 together would, would it not?

All of those factors come into play. How many aggressors, presence of weapons, disparity of force, if you are in good health, etc. An 87 y/o woman on oxygen isn't held to the same standard as a 21 y/o man who's a semi-pro boxer. It all boils down to "is it reasonable."

 

[CathyInBlue]

It all boils down to "is it reasonable."

And even if it's reasonable, will the judge allow you to testify and include evidence and law that prove it, or knee cap your defense?

 

[Fixer]

The laws of admissable evidence is sometimes a confusing and illogical system. I have been there in other situations and it is frustrating to say the least. I was also not on trial for my life.

 

[Fixer]

So the disparity of force equation I'm curious of is if you're armed against one assailant who is bearing down on you aggressively with nothing in his hands (apparently), with a backup team of several other potential assailants, how does that equate? One apparently unarmed yet aggressive man may not pose an imminent threat, but 20 together would, would it not?

I for one will never assume that the aggressive dirtbag in front of me is not armed.