More info on shooting someone to prevent a punch

[BehindBlueI's]

I know this has been an ongoing debate on INGO, and wanted to share some more information that supports both sides, both those who say shoot and those who say don't. With the understanding that you are all big boys and girls and need to make your own decisions, I want you to have as much information as possible to make that an informed decision.

Nugget #1: We have another case of a person taking a single blow to the face which resulted in very serious injury, including possibly permanent brain damage. From one punch. This is an ongoing investigation and I will not give any additional information at this time.

Nugget #2: Juries do not believe you can shoot someone to prevent a punch, nor does the prosecutor. I am not saying they are right, I am telling you the prejudice you will need to overcome. I sat on a jury selection today where self defense was going to be the claim. Both the prosecution and the defense asked jurors if they believed if you could use a baseball bat, knife, or firearm to defend yourself against verbal threats, a single punch, a single punch with more apparently on the way, or an attack with a baseball bat. Over 30 jurors were in this particular pool. They were unanimous in that it was unreasonable to use a firearm against a single punch and almost unanimous in saying it was unreasonable for a single punch with more on the way. The few who didn't make it unanimous said you'd have to be being beaten to death. The majority said you'd have to let the person hit you first before you even responded with a fist.

Takeaway: Taking a blow to the face is a bad idea. However, the law isn't necessarily on board with that line of thought. A jury is likely biased against any such claim, and while this may not be an insurmountable obstacle, it does mean you've got an uphill battle.

As I mentioned in a previous post about this, I had to really push against the prosecutor to not file on a guy who used deadly force to prevent a blow to the head when the guy had a well documented serious medical condition that meant he was much more likely to die from a blow than the average person. I believe I would lose that fight for an otherwise healthy person.

I make no recommendation either way. Its a poo sandwich, you either run the small risk of a serious injury (after all, the vast majority of punches do not lead to serious or long term injury...but those that do are life altering) or you run the serious risk of severe legal consequences.

 

[FireBirdDS]

Then what is a "reasonable defense" legally from a single-blow punch? (which by the way, people can and have died from directly or indirectly) A single punch hard enough intended to knock someone out cold, should it do so, essentially leaves them at the mercy of the thug(s) who may or may not decide to continue on and "finish the job".

 

[nakinate]

This is why I visit INGO. What a great resource. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Disposable Heart]

So, let's see: either run the risk of spending time in jail (or heavy legal beagle action), or potentially at best, sound like you've had a stroke due to brain damage from some hoods playing the knockout game.

I would imagine that due to the increasing volume of these attacks and the damages being done by them (verified by medical personnel), I think the legal challenge is diminishing rapidly as more and more of these attacks occur. Give it another couple of weeks and I think it will become less of an issue if someone waxes some worthless thug trying to be a youtube hero...

 

[churchmouse]

As always this is info that is easily digested and understood.

So it seems one has to take a few good shots before self defense can be claimed.

It has come to this.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Serious food for thought... Some coworkers & I have been discussing this "game" & most don't believe it's real! Some serious sheeple in my building.

Thank you, OP!

 

[churchmouse]

Serious food for thought... Some coworkers & I have been discussing this "game" & most don't believe it's real! Some serious sheeple in my building.

Thank you, OP!

Denial is a real deal my friend. People do not want to believe bad things are going on until it hits them in the face.

 

[Mackey]

There are many things to consider about something that is going to allow you about 1-5 seconds to make a decision.
The decision of if you will pull the trigger to end someone's life has to be made before the stuff goes down. Since the question "Is it worth taking a life?" may not be top priority on your radar, the better question may be, "Is it worth ruining yours?"
So From my point of view, I should not pull my gun unless my life is in such peril that it is worth the risk of becoming the next George Z. Kind of sucks, but that's the way it seems to be these days.

The OP's discussion though, has made me think I should be spending money more on self defense instruction than in sending lead down range.

 

[cbhausen]

How about 360 degree vision built into a full coverage helmet? Could you imagine going out in something like this?

FlyViz puts eyes in the back of your head

 

[Tanfodude]

Thanks for this though provoking situation. Well, if the victim is a frail 65 y/o man against a fit/lean 30 y/o man, a punch can kill the old fella.

Teenager Killed Stranger With Single Punch Another example.

So, either way if the victim doesn't shoot, he'll face medical and financial problems, if he shoots, he'll face legal and financial problems. No win situation.

 

[GunSlinger]

How about 360 degree vision built into a full coverage helmet? Could you imagine going out in something like this?

FlyViz puts eyes in the back of your head

Looking at that thing makes me think it would likely provoke an attack.

BBI that is a great post with a lot of real world info...rep inbound!


Edit: Tried to rep ya but the rep squad says I have to spread it around a bit more before I can. Can someone rep BBI for me?

 

[j706]

I have been preaching this gun to a fist fight trouble for years. Someone can do everything right and still catch a charge. I will say that the county that an incident happens in has much to do with it. Avoidance is still the best policy imo.

 

[Roland of Gilead]

Simple version of a complex situation.
If someone is going to punch you in the face, the first thing you should do is avoid as much damage as possible.
One can not defend thyself if laying on the ground knocked the !@#$ out.

There is a very good chance that if you do not defend yourself with your wits and fists, you will never even have a chance to defend yourself with a weapon.

If your going to use a weapon in a fist fight, one should consider what one will do while in prison with no where to run and no handy pistols.

I have never been to prison, but I have taken an ass whooping. I was much younger when I took my last licks (not bad,busted lip and black eye), but I'm confident it is better than prison.

It is about disparity of force when to use deadly force.

 

[j706]

Simple version of a complex situation.
If someone is going to punch you in the face, the first thing you should do is avoid as much damage as possible.
One can not defend thyself if laying on the ground knocked the !@#$ out.

There is a very good chance that if you do not defend yourself with your wits and fists, you will never even have a chance to defend yourself with a weapon.

If your going to use a weapon in a fist fight, one should consider what one will do while in prison with no where to run and no handy pistols.

I have never been to prison, but I have taken an ass whooping. I was much younger when I took my last licks (not bad,busted lip and black eye), but I'm confident it is better than prison.

It is about disparity of force when to use deadly force.

Awesome points you made that I have never thought about.

 

[nakinate]

Simple version of a complex situation.
If someone is going to punch you in the face, the first thing you should do is avoid as much damage as possible.
One can not defend thyself if laying on the ground knocked the !@#$ out.

There is a very good chance that if you do not defend yourself with your wits and fists, you will never even have a chance to defend yourself with a weapon.

If your going to use a weapon in a fist fight, one should consider what one will do while in prison with no where to run and no handy pistols.

I have never been to prison, but I have taken an ass whooping. I was much younger when I took my last licks (not bad,busted lip and black eye), but I'm confident it is better than prison.

It is about disparity of force when to use deadly force.

Understood, but we have documented cases of a single punch BEING deadly force. This complicates the decision making. It's one thing to get your ass beat. It's an entirely different thing to be sucker punched when you are not prepared for it.

 

[Slawburger]

Edit: Tried to rep ya but the rep squad says I have to spread it around a bit more before I can. Can someone rep BBI for me?

Same here, he will have to stop making good posts for awhile.

 

[Denny347]

Well, lots of people like to tout, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." While that is still true, be prepared to lose your freedom by those 12. I will likely NEVER want a jury to decide my fate. They are unpredictable and sometimes without logic. They make the strangest decisions.

 

[alabasterjar]

Situational awareness is the best line of defense. In all of the cases I have read about, the victim was "going about their everyday life", likely completely unaware who was around

The thugs doing this crap are cowards - I may be wrong, but I don't believe they would follow through if a target squared up to them. Even if the thug did follow through at that point, the target has a chance for some level of self defense.

It's sad this is even a topic of conversation...

 

[Disposable Heart]

People seem to be laboring under the delusion that they can "take their licks" from a KO game attack. Newsflash: Not just elderly people have been attacked, young people as well and they have suffered permanent damage to their bodies from these attacks. People have died.

We are allowed to use force, including deadly force, under WHAT law situations, the actual law?
See below:
A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Unfortunately, the specifics on a felony grade (not high misdemeanor grade) battery are pretty narrow and don't apply to people walking down the street. So we are stuck, literally, between idiotic exceptions to the law (if you are a cop or handicapped or preggers, then it's a felony, just us joes who could be killed with a single punch, oh, it's just a misdemeanor, you shoot you go to jail) and the harsh reality of these attacks.

The definition of serious bodily injury is open to speculation...

 

[churchmouse]

People seem to be laboring under the delusion that they can "take their licks" from a KO game attack. Newsflash: Not just elderly people have been attacked, young people as well and they have suffered permanent damage to their bodies from these attacks. People have died.

We are allowed to use force, including deadly force, under WHAT law situations, the actual law?
See below:
A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Unfortunately, the specifics on a felony grade (not high misdemeanor grade) battery are pretty narrow and don't apply to people walking down the street. So we are stuck, literally, between idiotic exceptions to the law (if you are a cop or handicapped or preggers, then it's a felony, just us joes who could be killed with a single punch, oh, it's just a misdemeanor, you shoot you go to jail) and the harsh reality of these attacks.

The definition of serious bodily injury is open to speculation...

A lot of the POS that do this are minors and have little if any fear of the law.
Law abiding citizens have more to fear....and loose in this idiocy.