More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time

[Annie Oakley]

+1 for techres. I don't think most people can support last trimester abortion unless there are serious complications. Once the fetus is able to survive outside the womb then it becomes a baby to me. I don't think that anyone can really change anyone else's mind on this issue. Certainly civil debate can take place but too many times emotion spills over and removes the civility of the different views.

The question as to if murder is ever moral, I would ask.....If you could go back in time, knowing your history, and take out Hitler before he came to power, would you? I would have to answer yes. There are other situations where my answer would be the same.

 

[Dashman010]

Without stating which way I would lean on this, lets all remember that "murder" is an act that is defined by the legislatures of our respective states. To the extent that one state may want to include abortion in the definition of murder, I think the people of that state have a sovereign right to do so. But for people just to blanketly say "abortion is murder" is missing the point of the whole argument, which is how to define life and therefore murder.

The 14th Amendment never has (before Roe), and shouldn't, implicate abortion. Let the states regulate, and most will come up with that middle ground that most of us agree on.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Without stating which way I would lean on this, lets all remember that "murder" is an act that is defined by the legislatures of our respective states. To the extent that one state may want to include abortion in the definition of murder, I think the people of that state have a sovereign right to do so. But for people just to blanketly say "abortion is murder" is missing the point of the whole argument, which is how to define life and therefore murder.

The 14th Amendment never has (before Roe), and shouldn't, implicate abortion. Let the states regulate, and most will come up with that middle ground that most of us agree on.

I don't need the government to tell me what is murder and what is not...I can think for myself.

There is no middle ground for an unborn child.

 

[Dashman010]

I don't need the government to tell me what is murder and what is not...I can think for myself.

Which is why this debate never goes anywhere, because some people don't view it as murder. Hence why, in my mind, the states should be able to regulate instead of having a Supreme Court decision do so.

As for thinking for yourself, thats fine and all, but at the point when your thinking is not in accord with the law, it doesn't hold much weight in an argument so divided as this. Now, if want to put your thinking to good use and try and change the law so that abortion is murder, I'm all for you engaging the system. Simply saying "abortion is murder" is about the 1 billionth time that has been said, and still we have a 50/50 divide with a Supreme Court decision that ties the State's hands.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Which is why this debate never goes anywhere, because some people don't view it as murder. Hence why, in my mind, the states should be able to regulate instead of having a Supreme Court decision do so.

As for thinking for yourself, thats fine and all, but at the point when your thinking is not in accord with the law, it doesn't hold much weight in an argument so divided as this. Now, if want to put your thinking to good use and try and change the law so that abortion is murder, I'm all for you engaging the system. Simply saying "abortion is murder" is about the 1 billionth time that has been said, and still we have a 50/50 divide with a Supreme Court decision that ties the State's hands.

We all know that will soon change with Obama's first appointment to the SCOTUS.

Of course some people don't view it as murder, nor want to hear it from those that oppose it...as they want to remove all consciousness of the facts so they can fulfill their selfish agendas.

 

[Dashman010]

We all know that will soon change with Obama's first appointment to the SCOTUS.

Of course some people don't view it as murder, nor want to hear it from those that oppose it...as they want to remove all consciousness of the facts so they can fulfill their selfish agendas.

First, Obama's first appointment to SCOTUS likely will change nothing -- he'll replace Souter with an equally liberal justice.

Second, i don't think people who say that we should allow abortion in cases of rape, incest, or health of the mother are the people who are trying to "remove all consciousness of the facts so they can fulfill their selfish agendas"

Again - middle ground folks.

 

[ATF Consumer]

First, Obama's first appointment to SCOTUS likely will change nothing -- he'll replace Souter with an equally liberal justice.

Second, i don't think people who say that we should allow abortion in cases of rape, incest, or health of the mother are the people who are trying to "remove all consciousness of the facts so they can fulfill their selfish agendas"

Again - middle ground folks.

I'll agree there are always exceptions to pretty much anything, and those you noted should certainly be taken into consideration.

The problem we then face is the abuse of the last noted...we've seen this one being abuse in the past to justify late term abortions.

Middle ground is a very gray guideline, as to whom is compromising what.

 

[Dashman010]

I'll agree there are always exceptions to pretty much anything, and those you noted should certainly be taken into consideration.

The problem we then face is the abuse of the last noted...we've seen this one being abuse in the past to justify late term abortions.

Middle ground is a very gray guideline, as to whom is compromising what.

I'll agree that there is plenty of potential for abuse in justifying late term abortions, but I think a physician is in a far better position to judge that kind of decision than the government is.

I'll also agree that middle ground is a very gray area, but the point is that people on both "extremes" (those who favor and disfavor abortion in ALL cases) are never going to get their way, no matter how long they argue about it. Abortion is a necessarily philosophical argument, somewhat like religion, and no one is every going to achieve an absolutist view, one way or the other.

This is precisely why democracy prevails here, where the people should decide in what instances it is permissible or not.

 

[Talonap]

Then, again, if people were responsible in the first place and used birth control, abortion would, I think, be less of an issue. Overpopulation is one of the worst, "Natural Disasters", of our planet. (Did I open another, "Can of worms"?)

 

[leftsock]

Then, again, if people were responsible in the first place and used birth control, abortion would, I think, be less of an issue. Overpopulation is one of the worst, "Natural Disasters", of our planet. (Did I open another, "Can of worms"?)

It would be nice if everyone had more personal responsibility in general. All the precautions taken, sometimes accidents happen. This brings to mind the chapter in Freakonomics about the role that legalized abortion played in reducing crime rates. Although it's become conventional wisdom that the fetuses aborted, who would have been born to disadvantaged families would've been more likely to have grown up to become criminals in their youths yadda yadda, "There are no statistical grounds for believing that the hypothetical youths who were aborted as fetuses would have been more likely to commit crimes had they reached maturity than the actual youths who developed from fetuses and carried to term." Though empirical evidence from the US and other countries would show that there seems to be something to it.

Paper: The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

And yes, the overpopulation and competition for limited resources is another can of worms.

 

[jsgolfman]

Anarcho-capitalists are libertarians of a particular stripe. It's not that they don't want government at all (which would be true anarchy), but that they want the functions provided by government to be provided by a free market mechanism, which is why I've been careful to speak of the geopolitical monopoly on coercion. Anarcho-capitalist societies would likely be very conservative and slow to change based on the fact that the agents of change would be restricted by the property rights of those already in the geosocial group.

Did someone say Anarcho-Capitalists?

 

[SketchyAdvise]

We should defend the defenseless. Call murder what it is.

so you're against capital punishment then.

 

[printcraft]

so you're against capital punishment then.

The INNOCENT CHILDREN did not do anything to warrant being killed.

Can't say the same for some ******* on death row that beat, raped and murdered some woman can you?

 

[cce1302]

so you're against capital punishment then.

What authority equates capital punishment and murder?

 

[SketchyAdvise]

Can't say the same for some ******* on death row that beat, raped and murdered some woman can you?

How many of those assholes are actually innocent? Its called a world of HYPOCRISY. Its not ok to kill babies, but it is ok to kill an adult.

 

[printcraft]

How many of those assholes are actually innocent? Its called a world of HYPOCRISY. Its not ok to kill babies, but it is ok to kill an adult.

I grant you that there are a small percentage (very small) of those assholes that may in fact be innocent.......

Now on the other hand I can say that 100% of the babies are innocent FO SHO.

 

[SketchyAdvise]

I grant you that there are a small percentage (very small) of those assholes that may in fact be innocent.......

would like a stat on that please. Actually you have no idea what that percent would be, only blind speculation.

 

[printcraft]

would like a stat on that please. Actually you have no idea what that percent would be, only blind speculation.

Innocence and the Crisis in the American Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

116 EXONERATED since 1973 TOTAL


Death Row Inmates by State and Size of Death Row by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

3,297 on death row as of this year.

116 exonerated over the last 36 years ..... about 3.2 a year roughly = 1% +-



Again, what is you speculation on the number of innocent children killed?

 

[SketchyAdvise]

116 EXONERATED since 1973 TOTAL

3,297 on death row as of this year.

116 exonerated over the last 36 years ..... about 3.2 a year roughly = 1% +-



Again, what is you speculation on the number of innocent children killed?

hmm, so thats fact that all the rest are GUILTY? That number does NOT prove anything. and the innocent kid thing: they are innocent but its still ok to kill an adult? I hate bible toters, they're the most hypocritical of them all. The bible says an eye for an eye so lets kill them! oh wait, it also says thou shall not kill...so what do we do? I know, lets just be hypocrits.

So you're ok with your wife or daughter carrying the baby of their RAPIST or rapist incested family member because they HAVE to?

 

[printcraft]

would like a stat on that please. Actually you have no idea what that percent would be, only blind speculation.

hmm, so thats fact that all the rest are GUILTY? That number does NOT prove anything. and the innocent kid thing: they are innocent but its still ok to kill an adult? I hate bible toters, they're the most hypocritical of them all. The bible says an eye for an eye so lets kill them! oh wait, it also says thou shall not kill...so what do we do? I know, lets just be hypocrits.

So you're ok with your wife or daughter carrying the baby of their RAPIST or rapist incested family member because they HAVE to?

I gave you the numbers you asked for. I guess since they did not
work out the way you wanted you will call them invalid.
You can choose to ignore them but what good will that do?

You are speculating on my responses, I don't believe I have told you
anything of the sort.