Monroe County Bans Smoking in Cars with Children

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  • haldir

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    Secondhand Smoke Scam

    Friday , October 17, 2003

    By Steven Milloy



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    I could only laugh last April when I first heard about a study claiming that a smoking ban in Helena, Mont., cut the city’s heart attack rate by 58 percent in six months.

    A prominent op-ed in this week’s Oct. 15 New York Times hailed the Miracle of Helena (search) and urged readers to give it more credit than it deserves.

    Citizens of Helena voted in June 2002 to ban smoking in all public buildings, including restaurants, bars and casinos. Doctors at the local hospital soon “noticed,” according to the op-ed, that heart attack admissions had dropped.

    Six months later, the ban was rescinded. Heart attack rates allegedly then rebounded to pre-ban levels.

    The bottom line is, “Secondhand smoke kills,” according to the op-ed.

    That would certainly seem to be a reasonable interpretation -- if all you did was read and believe the op-ed. But, of course, my inquiring mind had a few questions to ask before coming to a “case-closed” conclusion on the Miracle of Helena.

    First, the study isn’t easy to evaluate -- but not because it’s rocket science. There simply is no study to evaluate.

    The results were issued in typical junk science style via a quick-and-dirty slideshow presentation at the annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology (search). Six months later, the study still is not available to the public.

    Slick junk scientists often choose the “science-by-press conference” mode of releasing results because they know their immediate audience likely will not be able to ask probing questions -- a tough thing to do when only sketchy details are hurriedly presented to people with no familiarity of the research conducted.

    Even so, anyone paying attention at the presentation should have picked up on the rather obvious problem with the supposed Miracle of Helena.

    Assuming the study information presented is accurate, fewer heart attacks seem to have occurred during the six months of the smoking ban.

    But a similar short-lived dip in heart attacks rates also occurred in Helena four years earlier in 1998. If whatever caused the 1998 dip happened again in 2002, the Miracle of Helena is really the Mirage of Helena.

    I talked to one of researchers about that simple observation. After stumbling and stammering for an explanation, he finally referred me to the “study’s statistician,” Dr. Stan Glantz (search) (more on him later) -- as if some statistical mumbo-jumbo would credibly explain why the 1998 dip in heart attack rates was just an anomaly but the 2002 dip was definitely due to the smoking ban.

    Another glaring problem is the researchers’ failure to study any pre- or post-ban patients to medically determine the causes of the reported heart attacks. Given all the genetic, lifestyle and environmental factors that combine to cause heart attacks, it is quite bogus to attribute them to secondhand smoke, especially without examining any patients.

    But why let conflicting data and insufficient data get in the way of a politically correct conclusion?

    I’m almost surprised that anyone is still trying to link secondhand smoke (search) with heart disease. The University of Chicago’s Dr. John Bailar -- no friend of the tobacco industry-- published in the March 25, 1999, New England Journal of Medicine his quite devastating analysis of the alleged link between secondhand smoke and heart disease.

    On the other hand, I’m not surprised to see Stan Glantz’s involvement in the Mirage of Helena.

    Glantz’s colleague on the Helena study tried to pass him off to me as “professor of statistics.” But I know better. I’ve observed Glantz for some time. I’ve debated him on the radio. He’s a shameless say-anything, do-anything anti-smoking zealot.

    Glantz has a Ph.D. in applied mechanics and engineering economic systems -- whatever that is, it is not statistics. He’s the director of the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education (search) at the University of California, San Francisco. He’s funded by the federal government to attack the tobacco industry. The National Cancer Institute, for example, gave Glantz $600,000 to “study” tobacco industry lobbying on the state level.

    Just what kind of cancer research is that?

    It’s been about six months since New York City’s smoking ban went into effect. I asked Dr. Glantz’s colleague if he would be studying whether the NYC smoking ban experience confirmed or contradicted his Helena study claims.

    He mumbled something about such a study being too difficult because of all the data involved.

    But I can see where anti-tobacco researchers wouldn’t want to have too much data. It just might clear up the smoke they’re blowing in our eyes.

    Steven Milloy is the publisher of JunkScience.com, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and the author of Junk Science Judo: Self-defense Against Health Scares and Scams (Cato Institute, 2001).

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    antsi

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    I did a quick Medline journal search and came up with 516 original research articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals linking environmental smoke exposure to asthma in children. Here are the first few that came up:

    Bouzigon et al (2008). Effect of 17q21 variants and smoking exposure in early-onset asthma. New England Journal of Medicine. 359(19):1985-94

    Rayens et al (2008). Reduction in asthma-related emergency department visits after implementation of a smoke-free law. Journal of Allergy & Clinical Immunology. 122(3):537-41.e3

    Goodwin et al (2008) Household smoking and childhood asthma in the United States: a state-level analysis. Journal of Asthma. 45(7):607-10

    Rabinovitch et al (2008) Exposure to tobacco smoke increases leukotriene E4-related albuterol usage and response to montelukast. Journal of Allergy & Clinical Immunology. 121(6):1365-71, 2008 Jun

    Midozdi et al (2008) Predictors for wheezing phenotypes in the first decade of life. Respirology. 13(4):537-45, 2008 Jun

    Halterman et al (2008) Improving care for urban children with asthma: design and methods of the School-Based Asthma Therapy (SBAT) trial. Journal of Asthma. 45(4):279-86, 2008 May.

    These are all original research in peer-reviewed journals. All of these studies found a link between environmental tobacco smoke and asthma onset or worsening of asthma symptoms among children.

    Haldir: OK, you found an example of bad science on the anti-smoking side. You'll note that in your article one of the criticisms was of the practice of releasing findings in the lay press prior to professional peer review. In other words, the study was not reviewed by experts before the results were published in the mainstream media. That is a poor practice and smacks of propaganda rather than science. However, it does not obviate the substantial body of well founded scientific research that has been subjected to peer review such as the studies I cited above, which were just the first few of 516 hits on my Medline search. Also note, I only searched Medline back to 1996 and limited to peer reviewed original research relating to asthma. There have been many other health conditions linked to smoke exposure in children. If I'd searched all those conditions, the list would have been much longer. So, yeah, you found one example of poor scientific practice that never even made it in to the professional literature. There's still plenty of quality evidence in the professional literature that can't be so easily dismissed.






     

    Bigum1969

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    I did a quick Medline journal search and came up with 516 original research articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals linking environmental smoke exposure to asthma in children. Here are the first few that came up:

    Bouzigon et al (2008). Effect of 17q21 variants and smoking exposure in early-onset asthma. New England Journal of Medicine. 359(19):1985-94

    Rayens et al (2008). Reduction in asthma-related emergency department visits after implementation of a smoke-free law. Journal of Allergy & Clinical Immunology. 122(3):537-41.e3

    Goodwin et al (2008) Household smoking and childhood asthma in the United States: a state-level analysis. Journal of Asthma. 45(7):607-10

    Rabinovitch et al (2008) Exposure to tobacco smoke increases leukotriene E4-related albuterol usage and response to montelukast. Journal of Allergy & Clinical Immunology. 121(6):1365-71, 2008 Jun

    Midozdi et al (2008) Predictors for wheezing phenotypes in the first decade of life. Respirology. 13(4):537-45, 2008 Jun

    Halterman et al (2008) Improving care for urban children with asthma: design and methods of the School-Based Asthma Therapy (SBAT) trial. Journal of Asthma. 45(4):279-86, 2008 May.

    These are all original research in peer-reviewed journals. All of these studies found a link between environmental tobacco smoke and asthma onset or worsening of asthma symptoms among children.

    Haldir: OK, you found an example of bad science on the anti-smoking side. You'll note that in your article one of the criticisms was of the practice of releasing findings in the lay press prior to professional peer review. In other words, the study was not reviewed by experts before the results were published in the mainstream media. That is a poor practice and smacks of propaganda rather than science. However, it does not obviate the substantial body of well founded scientific research that has been subjected to peer review such as the studies I cited above, which were just the first few of 516 hits on my Medline search. Also note, I only searched Medline back to 1996 and limited to peer reviewed original research relating to asthma. There have been many other health conditions linked to smoke exposure in children. If I'd searched all those conditions, the list would have been much longer. So, yeah, you found one example of poor scientific practice that never even made it in to the professional literature. There's still plenty of quality evidence in the professional literature that can't be so easily dismissed.







    :+1: and repped
     

    haldir

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    My only thought was that when politics and money get involved the science often gets a bit suspect. Just as the tobacco industry used to finance and publish their studies that showed unequivocally that smoking was safe and maybe even beneficial. As the old saying goes a lie told often enough becomes the accepted truth. I don't actually doubt that inhaling smoke of any kind probably has undesirable effects. I also know that there have been studies that showed that tobacco smoke has a beneficial correlation as related to Parkinsons, but you will never see that study in the mainstream media. We have an entire industry devoted to anti-smoking. They get their money in large part from the tobacco industry under that big settlement. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that their studies will say that touching the clothing of someone that smoked will kill the innocent party by some ghastly death.
     

    StarKing

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    Starking, I do read a great deal of clinical literature and I have read some of the original research on this topic. It is quite well established that the children of smokers are at higher risk of asthma.
    The only way this could be definitively proven one way or another would be a large scale randomized controlled trial, which obviously is not going to happen. What evidence there is will therefore be circumstantial.
    You are correct to the extent that the exact risks of second hand smoke to children are not well established, but it is simply not correct to say that it's been proven to be harmless (let alone protective).

    I didn't say read the peer reviewed clinical research, I said read the data. Clinical research is peer reviewed by Doctors, not by Scientists. Generally speaking Medical Doctors are not going to do a very good review of the quality of the science involved in a piece of clinical literature.
    Epidemiology for instance is widely accepted in the medical community, but as science it is very weak. In my field, a piece of research based on the same methods would be hard pressed to get IN to a review committee, much less make it out intact. Peer review is a good thing, but it must be seen in the light of exactly what is the expertise of the peers.

    I stand by my position, look at the actual data, and pay special attention to the error bars. Also watch out for single-tailed statistical analyses, which are not appropriate to this type of research and give biased results (which still don't manage to support the claims, even with the statistical bias).
    Again: Look at the actual data, not the report on the data.
     

    StarKing

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    I'm not sure if this was directed or caused by my statement, but just to be clear....

    I wasn't saying that second hand smoke isn't dangerous. It is, but its not MORE dangerous than smoking the cig itself.

    Just wanted to be clear on that.

    Hello my friend.
    Actually, I think he was directing that statement at me. I did say that second hand smoke was harmless, and I stand by that.
     

    SavageEagle

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    Hello my friend.
    Actually, I think he was directing that statement at me. I did say that second hand smoke was harmless, and I stand by that.

    :laugh: Ok. Just wondered about that. Interesting convo though.

    The only thing I know about first and second hand smoke is that first hand smoke is blue, second hand smoke is gray. I always figured it was because of the paper, but I could be wrong. I'll have to burn some of my tobacco before I roll it and see if it still turns blue. Matter of fact I'll go do that and let you all know! :D
     

    SavageEagle

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    Hmmm. Test was kinda shocking. I tested 4 different types of tobacco, just the tobacco, and none of them had gray or blue smoke. It wasn't really either but some kind of colored gray. Almost a green-blue tint, but mostly gray. I tested Basic UL, Camel M, Camel L, and Marlboro. I smoke Marlboro and American Spirit but didn't test the AS. I did smoke a Marlboro while I was out there in my garage and as expected the first hand smoke was blue, second hand was flat gray. The blue is most assuredly the paper.

    Put that in your research.

    :rockwoot:
     

    StarKing

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    Hmmm. Test was kinda shocking. I tested 4 different types of tobacco, just the tobacco, and none of them had gray or blue smoke. It wasn't really either but some kind of colored gray. Almost a green-blue tint, but mostly gray. I tested Basic UL, Camel M, Camel L, and Marlboro. I smoke Marlboro and American Spirit but didn't test the AS. I did smoke a Marlboro while I was out there in my garage and as expected the first hand smoke was blue, second hand was flat gray. The blue is most assuredly the paper.

    Put that in your research.

    :rockwoot:

    Clearly we should ban paper in all public areas, and raise the paper tax to $1.01 per sheet!
    :laugh:
     

    Chefcook

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    The government and it seems a lot of private citizens as well need to learn to mind their own business. How or why people think they have the right to tell another person what they can and cant do is mind baffling to me. Just who in the f&$k do these people think they are to make decisions for me or my children. Government or citizen its none of your BUSINESS!!!!!!! OMG its so simple... Just mind your own business and stop trying to force and impose your ideals and views upon other people, you have absolutely no right to do so at all in any way. None, zip, zero, nadda, no F'ING right. None at all!!!!!! OMG WTF the level of stupidity is incomprehensible....:xmad: :noway:
     

    Jack Ryan

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    I don't smoke but I feel that every time they take something away from us, we lose more then just that item.
    Chip, chip, chip, they are chipping away at our rights.

    It's not about smoking, the children, or any one's health. At least not your health for your own sake. It's about the health of what the government considers their property and their exercising their dominance over you as their property. They don't consider the general poplation of this country to be free individuals or value your right to self determination. They consider you, your children, your neighbor, the population to be the country's greatest asset. An asset for THEM to make best use of to the benefit of THEIR country and their selves.

    You don't train a mule to drag a plow the day it is born. You get him used to the idea of you being the boss first. You feed him, make sure he's healthy or get rid of him and find a better mule to spend your money on. His every thing and decide when he'll get it and if. He's just frigging happy you feed him.

    Hillary said it takes a village to raise a child. What she means is you kid belongs to the village and you'll raise it the way her village says. Seat belts, cigarettes, social engineering through taxation, nothing but training aides. Looks like it's working.
     

    StarKing

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    It's not about smoking, the children, or any one's health. At least not your health for your own sake. It's about the health of what the government considers their property and their exercising their dominance over you as their property. They don't consider the general poplation of this country to be free individuals or value your right to self determination. They consider you, your children, your neighbor, the population to be the country's greatest asset. An asset for THEM to make best use of to the benefit of THEIR country and their selves.

    You don't train a mule to drag a plow the day it is born. You get him used to the idea of you being the boss first. You feed him, make sure he's healthy or get rid of him and find a better mule to spend your money on. His every thing and decide when he'll get it and if. He's just frigging happy you feed him.

    Hillary said it takes a village to raise a child. What she means is you kid belongs to the village and you'll raise it the way her village says. Seat belts, cigarettes, social engineering through taxation, nothing but training aides. Looks like it's working.

    Bullseye! ...damn, you must be one of those guys who shoots guns!
     

    Paco Bedejo

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    If it's dangerous in the car, it's probably dangerous everywhere. If it's dangerous everywhere, shouldn't it be prohibited period? There are a lot of other substances which are prohibited for consumption that DON'T show evidence of causing harm to other persons...

    Seems to me like Monroe County is going about it very poorly & it's probably going to cost the county a lot of money to defend it.

    Regarding smoking: I put it this way to my Father-in-Law when he was smoking at the dinner table: You wouldn't want me to sit here & crap my pants while you're eating, so if you want your daughter & I to continue visiting, show some courtesy & don't blow smoke all over the room without a thought for the others in it.

    Smoking in an enclosed car with your kids in it is simply stupid. My parents did it & I hated it. I wonder why so many kids like me grew up with constant allergies...

    That said, there shouldn't be a FINE for it. It's either child endangerment or it isn't. Monroe County shouldn't be allowed to sit on the fence & collect fines.
     

    antsi

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    I didn't say read the peer reviewed clinical research, I said read the data. Clinical research is peer reviewed by Doctors, not by Scientists. Generally speaking Medical Doctors are not going to do a very good review of the quality of the science involved in a piece of clinical literature.
    Epidemiology for instance is widely accepted in the medical community, but as science it is very weak. In my field, a piece of research based on the same methods would be hard pressed to get IN to a review committee, much less make it out intact. Peer review is a good thing, but it must be seen in the light of exactly what is the expertise of the peers.

    I stand by my position, look at the actual data, and pay special attention to the error bars. Also watch out for single-tailed statistical analyses, which are not appropriate to this type of research and give biased results (which still don't manage to support the claims, even with the statistical bias).
    Again: Look at the actual data, not the report on the data.

    OK, I'll contact the researchers on all 516 of those studies and ask them to send me their data so I can re-analyze it. I'll get back to you on that real soon :rolleyes:

    You're right that physicians in clinical practice are not all good scientists. However, those who conduct reserach and review research are generally very good scientists.

    It is true in medicine that we sometimes have to use observational and associational methods rather than experimental designs. This is due to the practical and ethical considerations involved with research on human subjects. Tell you what; next time I'm doing research on harmful health effects I'll call you and your family to be experimental volunteers. If you're in materials science or some other field where you can spend all day deliberately breaking things, then yes, you have the luxury of more rigorous study designs than are generally available in medicine. We don't have the option of indiscriminately harming people to make a point.

    You are certainly free to stand by your assertion that exposure to cigarette has been definitively proven to be beneficial to children.

    I do agree with you that there are people in this debate who have already made up their minds what results they want to believe, and then go cherry-picking evidence to support what they've already concluded.

    What's equally clear to me is that you are one of them.

    You've off-handedly dismissed 516 peer reviewed studies without even looking at them, based on flimsy excuses like some of them might have used a single tailed statistical test. I've taken graduate level statistics, too, and I know the difference between a single tailed and two tailed test. I agree that in some studies that are on the borderline of statistical significance, researchers have inappropriately used a single tailed test to make their findings look better. I agree it's not intellectually honest to do this. However, even when this is done, it doesn't reverse the direction of the association; it just alters the relative chances of a Type I vs. Type II error.

    Most peer reviewers are pretty well aware of tricks like this and generally do not let them pass muster. The bottom line here, though, is that you haven't even looked at any of these studies before you dismiss all 516 of them out of hand, because you suspect that maybe some of them might have inappropriately used a single tailed test. This is not consistent with your claims to scientific rigor and unbiased objectivity.

    Look, I don't have a personal axe to grind here: I've already said I am against the Monroe County ordnance. I'm a libertarian and I take the side of freedom on almost all social issues, including this one.

    However, I do that from an intellectually honest standpoint. And that means acknowledging that when we side with freedom, we have to accept the fact that some people will use their freedom in stupid and harmful ways. I think that smoking in a car with your children is certainly stupid, and the balance of evidence suggests that it's probably harmful. When I say I oppose this ordnance, I'm not going out manufacturing evidence, or ignoring other evidence, to construct some kind of fantasy that breathing cigarette smoke is beneficial to children. I'm saying it's probably harmful, but I'm not willing to accept the kind of police state that you would have to accept to stamp out every possibility of anyone doing something stupid and harmful.
     
    Last edited:

    Chefcook

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    It's not about smoking, the children, or any one's health. At least not your health for your own sake. It's about the health of what the government considers their property and their exercising their dominance over you as their property. They don't consider the general poplation of this country to be free individuals or value your right to self determination. They consider you, your children, your neighbor, the population to be the country's greatest asset. An asset for THEM to make best use of to the benefit of THEIR country and their selves.

    You don't train a mule to drag a plow the day it is born. You get him used to the idea of you being the boss first. You feed him, make sure he's healthy or get rid of him and find a better mule to spend your money on. His every thing and decide when he'll get it and if. He's just frigging happy you feed him.

    Hillary said it takes a village to raise a child. What she means is you kid belongs to the village and you'll raise it the way her village says. Seat belts, cigarettes, social engineering through taxation, nothing but training aides. Looks like it's working.

    Jack they just don't get it...I wonder if they will get a clue when they get put out to pasture, or if they will just line up and accept their fate at the glue factory...
     
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