Michigan Citizen with IN CCW Q's

[joedekock]

Hello all,

I am a member of the migunowners forums and am a Michigan Citizen.

My family and I will be traveling to Michigan City this weekend for back to school clothes shopping. The lawyer for my CCW class taught us that a general rule of thumb is that 80% of the states that honor Michigan's CPL, (concealed pistol license), through reciprocity, have the same if not more loose laws on concealed carry.

I just want to know if there are any bug-a-boo's I need to watch out for in carrying in IN. I plan on carrying in my pocket or on my ankle. While traveling long distances, I usually keep the pistol in the center console. I know Ohio has a law, that even when traveling in your car you need to have the pistol on your body.

Other than the obvious signs on shops or stores I go into that may prohibit firearms, and I generally safe carrying? Also, if the unfortunate event of needing to defend my, or my family's life comes to pass, are there laws that I need to flee if possible first? Michigan has the castle doctrine, so anywhere I am legally allowed to be, I may defend my or my family's life without fleeing even if it is possible.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide. We usually make it to or through Indiana a half dozen times a year, and I have yet to travel with my CPL and concealed pistol. The Indiana state websites are almost useless for explanation of self defense laws with deadly force.

 

[Episcopus]

No duty to retreat here.

You shouldn't see any problem areas in Michigan City. "No firearms allowed" signs don't carry the weight of law here, but if you are asked to leave you must. You can be charged with trespass if you don't. I don't think I have seen any "No guns" signs at the outlet mall, though.

Gun doesn't have to be on your person in your car, it can be anywhere. Unlike Michigan, you don't have a duty to inform a police officer that you are carrying, in the event that you get stopped for something while here.

 

[Bill of Rights]

No duty to retreat here.

You shouldn't see any problem areas in Michigan City. "No firearms allowed" signs don't carry the weight of law here, but if you are asked to leave you must. You can be charged with trespass if you don't. I don't think I have seen any "No guns" signs at the outlet mall, though.

Gun doesn't have to be on your person in your car, it can be anywhere. Unlike Michigan, you don't have a duty to inform a police officer that you are carrying, in the event that you get stopped for something while here.

No duty to inform, but if asked by a LEO, you must show your CPL.

You can carry open if you choose, but if you don't want to be asked for it, "concealed means concealed".

Enjoy your shopping trip and stay safe!

Blessings,
B

 

[indyjoe]

You can carry open if you choose, but if you don't want to be asked for it, "concealed means concealed".

I understand that Indiana's LTCH allows for open carry. Can you carry open if you have a license from another state that is a CPL or CCW (operative word being concealed in those)? I wonder if that changes the legality of open carry in Indiana.

 

[joedekock]

Thanks for your responses guys! Everything sounds like it is well in line with Michigan so I will feel very comfortable and confident in carrying concealed!

We plan to start visiting Indiana's sites more and in the upcoming years as a family camping destination. Are you allowed to concealed carry in the state parks? Michigan had some laws that said no up until a couple of years ago in the state parks.

 

[Bigum1969]

Thanks for your responses guys! Everything sounds like it is well in line with Michigan so I will feel very comfortable and confident in carrying concealed!

We plan to start visiting Indiana's sites more and in the upcoming years as a family camping destination. Are you allowed to concealed carry in the state parks? Michigan had some laws that said no up until a couple of years ago in the state parks.

Yes, you can carry open or concealed in Indiana's state parks.

 

[kludge]

PLEASE NOTE:

If you want to carry in Indiana you have to carry according to the terms of the Michigan license.

IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
<snip>
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.

(emphasis mine)

If the Michigan CCW says you have to carry concealed, then you have to carry concealed while in Indiana.

I don't know how far a prosecutor could reasonably take this interpretation, but for instance, carry in a church without permission is illegal in Michigan. Even though it's not illegal in Indiana, it not "according to the terms" of the Michigan license. It also might be illegal to carry in Michigan State parks, and therefore concievably illegal for you to carry in Indiana State Parks. If you have any questions, please call Major Jerome Ezell at the ISP at 1-800-552-8917 (that's the number I was given earlier this year).

 

[indyjoe]

If the Michigan CCW says you have to carry concealed, then you have to carry concealed while in Indiana.

Thanks for the clarification. This was my belief as well, when I made my previous post.

I look at it this way: You are safest to go with the most restrictive of the two laws. (i.e. you can't just open carry in a reciprocal state of Indiana, just because you can in Indiana with an IN LTCH.)

 

[hoosiertriangle]

Just a little more information for my understanding. Did you arrive at the interpretation of this statute by yourself, from the ISP, a lawyer, or some other source? After reading the statute, I am not sure that it is talking about following the laws of your state while in Indiana, but more to do about Indiana's recognition of an out of state license and the acceptance of the procedures those states/countries have for obtaining a license.

I'm just looking for a little more information as I continue to evaluate the statute.

Thanks,

PLEASE NOTE:

If you want to carry in Indiana you have to carry according to the terms of the Michigan license.

IC 35-47-2-21
Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
<snip>
(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.

(emphasis mine)

If the Michigan CCW says you have to carry concealed, then you have to carry concealed while in Indiana.

I don't know how far a prosecutor could reasonably take this interpretation, but for instance, carry in a church without permission is illegal in Michigan. Even though it's not illegal in Indiana, it not "according to the terms" of the Michigan license. It also might be illegal to carry in Michigan State parks, and therefore concievably illegal for you to carry in Indiana State Parks. If you have any questions, please call Major Jerome Ezell at the ISP at 1-800-552-8917 (that's the number I was given earlier this year).

 

[kludge]

Good question. This is MY interpretation, AFAIK, IANAL, etc.

That is why I gave the phone number for the ISP.

 

[hoosiertriangle]

Thanks for the clarification, I wish I was more clear on the statute however.

 

[ABolt243]

IANAL,

Nor does my home state even have a LTCH law. I do however hold two non-resident licenses and do carry when in states that honor my licenses. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that when carrying in any state, you carry according to the laws of the state you are in, regardless of the state your license was issued from.

If you follow what has been said here, you could bring your IN license to IL and carry according to IN laws. Unfortunately, I don't think that will work. Going further, how can IN troopers be expected to know MI law and enforce it in IN??

Last reference, in the 2007 edition of the Traveler's Guide to the Firearms Laws of the Fifty States by J. Scott Kappas, on page two he says: "When carrying concealed outside of one's vehicle in a state that provides reciprocity, the traveler should be aware that, in most instances, he carries subject to the restictions imposed on concealed carry in that state."

I'll bet someone checks in here soon that knows for sure.

AB

My take on the Statute:

I think that the statute is saying that IN will recognize any other license, regardless of what is required for the holder to qualify for that license. I.E., some licenses require fingerprints, some classes, some live fire training. But even if the non-IN license is issued under less restrictive rules than IN, like VT or AK, they are still recognized.

Make sense??

 

[hoosiertriangle]

IANALY (I Am Not A Lawyer Yet), though in law school. My intuition points towards ABolts opinion of the statute.

Importing an entire other state/countries carry law on just a partial phrase is alot to do for a statute. Saying Indiana will recognize your license so long as you could get in your state makes a great deal more sense to me.

 

[kludge]

Quote from Indiana Handgun Law - Second Edition by Bryan L. Ciyou, Esq.

... such foreign permits are recognized in Indiana only according to their terms thereof, but what are such terms? For instance, if an Indiana Licensee with a qualified license was carrying with his license for purposes other than hunting or target practice in a state with the same statutory language, how would this be determined as a violation of the law?

He doesn't mention any case law (if there was case law it would probably be in the book as he has case law examples for nearly everything else), but my reading of the law and his explanation leads me to believe that if your state has a "must be concelaed" law or a "51%" law (carry in a bar) it still applies to you while you are in Indiana.

Also both of you are right in that the Indiana law also applies. Another quote from the book uses a driver's license analogy.

... it also requires that the Licensee obtain a working understanding of that reciprocal state's laws... Like a driver's license, the Licensee follows the law of the state in which he is engaging in recprocal carry.

 

[ABolt243]

Not to be stirring up trouble, but......

Quote from Indiana Handgun Law - Second Edition by Bryan L. Ciyou, Esq.



He doesn't mention any case law (if there was case law it would probably be in the book as he has case law examples for nearly everything else), but my reading of the law and his explanation leads me to believe that if your state has a "must be concelaed" law or a "51%" law (carry in a bar) it still applies to you while you are in Indiana.

Also both of you are right in that the Indiana law also applies. Another quote from the book uses a driver's license analogy.

So you're saying that your IN LEO's will know and enforce not only IN's law, but also the law of all the other 47 states that have carry laws?? Isn't that a little much to expect of them?

I'll continue to follow the laws of the state that I'm in that honor the license that I have. I don't have a sign on my back that say's "I'm from IL carrying on a PA license" so how will anyone know what rules I"m supposed to follow?? I'm afraid I can't follow the logic of your interpretation of the law. No offense meant, you do what you feel you need to do. I'm a guest here and certainly don't want to cause trouble. I'd say a State's Attorney from IN could give you a definitive answer.

Have a good day, carry always, be safe!
AB

 

[Episcopus]

So you're saying that your IN LEO's will know and enforce not only IN's law, but also the law of all the other 47 states that have carry laws?? Isn't that a little much to expect of them?

I'll continue to follow the laws of the state that I'm in that honor the license that I have. I don't have a sign on my back that say's "I'm from IL carrying on a PA license" so how will anyone know what rules I"m supposed to follow?? I'm afraid I can't follow the logic of your interpretation of the law. No offense meant, you do what you feel you need to do. I'm a guest here and certainly don't want to cause trouble. I'd say a State's Attorney from IN could give you a definitive answer.

Have a good day, carry always, be safe!
AB

I don't think anyone would expect LEO to know the laws of every other state which issues permits. However, it would be pretty easy for them to get on the radio and ask someone to find out really quickly. I imagine most posts have contact numbers for at least the other States nearby. On the other hand, this is assuming that they care at all. Indiana has pretty liberal carry laws, so you have probably done something more than just carry if you are getting police attention. In most places of the State, anyway.

I think the statute probably means that if your out of state license specifies concealed, you have to conceal. If it allows open, you can go open. But it could mean something else entirely.

 

[CarmelHP]

IAALBINYL (I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer). I believe the statutory language refers to restrictions such as target only, hunting only, employment only or only certain firearms versus unrestricted licenses and permits. That's the only reasonable reading I can conceive of.

 

[kludge]

I believe that is also a reasonable reading.

To further disagree with myself, how can Indiana prosecute you for Michigan's laws (carry in a church for instance)?

I guess it all depends on who is prosecuting you, and if they decide that you weren't carrying "according to the terms" they will slap a misdemenor/felony charge on you for carrying without a license.

I tried once to send questions to the AG office, and they referred me to the ISP. The ISP person who answers firearms e-mails, after not being able to answer the questions, gave me the name and number in my first post.

I didn't call. I wanted it in writing. The more I read the Indiana handgun laws the more questions I have.

 

[Episcopus]

To further disagree with myself, how can Indiana prosecute you for Michigan's laws (carry in a church for instance)?

I guess it all depends on who is prosecuting you, and if they decide that you weren't carrying "according to the terms" they will slap a misdemenor/felony charge on you for carrying without a license.

Bingo! You wouldn't be prosecuted for violating Michigan's laws. You would be prosecuted for not having a permit/license/whatever term you want to use. You would be considered unlicensed because you were doing something your license didn't allow. Same as carrying in Indiana for general purposes on a restricted Indiana license.

 

[joedekock]

Thanks for the help and all the info guys! The wife and I blew plenty of money at the Lighthouse place outlet mall and had a great lunch at Carson's with some home made root beer!

No Problems with carrying, and not a single sign posted on any shop or store prohibiting fire arms. It was too hot though to carry my new S&W 637 I bought Thursday. I bought it with the intention to wear it IWB. Being as hot as it was, I was not going to wear a t-shirt under a t-shirt to keep the pistol from having sweaty skin contact. So the Kel-Tec P3AT rode nicely in its pocket holster in my shorts pocket.

All in all, a great day in Indiana today! (Except for the 7% sales tax... you guys gotta get on Evan Bayh about that)!