Miami Burger King shooting

[Dogman]

If the robber isn't threatening lives yet, I don't know if it's wise to draw your weapon and potentially start a shootout like this one. Assuming the robber was planning to just grab the money and run, then if the armed customer hadn't drawn he probably wouldn't be in the hospital with bullet holes now, and the other guy wouldn't have lost his life over a hundred bucks from a cash register. That said, if there are signs that a robber is getting too violent (which may have been the case here, I don't know), then that's probably justification for response.

Btw, I'm not saying that we should let criminals get away with this behavior, but this is the sort of thing that the liberals like to use as an example of "how armed citizens only create dangerous situations and how much safer we'd all be without them." So for our own sake, let's use our weapons in moderation.

Glock Lite. Please shoot responsibly.

Well said, sometimes its better to just stand back and be a good witness instead of endangering lives. If noone has been hurt let them take the money and go. JMO

 

[mattfoley]

I'm really not sure what I would do in a situation like this.

Lets see.

-Secure my family first. Get them out of the line of fire, or potential lines of fire.

-Take cover/Find a good(or the best possible) firing position.

-Draw and make ready.

-Decision to fire or not to fire.

Now this process is going to happen in less than 5 seconds.

Decision to fire depends on the BG (weapon displayed?, finger on trigger?, likelihood of me/others getting hurt by Bg), backstop, bystanders, etc.

I hope that if I am ever in a situation like that, that I can go through the decision process fast enough to prevent my family/myself/others (in that order) from getting hurt.

 

[agentl074]

The armed citizen probably froze for a second and returned fire. This is why each and every one of us must use simulations training in the case of the unthinkable. Heck this can be as simple as using your house as a training station - remember to clear out your firearms

 

[agentl074]

Unless you have kids or neighbors.... If a .45 will penetrate and kill a neighbor from 300 yards away... then a rifle or 00 buck will really mess a house up.

I was thinking about that incident .... I have shot several .45 rounds into the ground - only penetrating a few inches. My buddy has even had a ball round hit the ground (some small stones) at the range and bounce into a plastic water bottle that was laying on the ground - the bottle retained the bullet.

I am sorry but I dont see how a pistol round can go 300 yards, through a wall and into a human body (several inches). He would have had to be right up to the wall. Pistol rounds just dont penetrate like rifle rounds

 

[SWAT-DOC]

Unless the BG was threatening me and/or someone else and I thought he was going to make good on the threat I don't think I would start an exchange over food or money. Watch for "sleepers" in the other patrons...no tunnel vision here. There may be more than one perp. Just don't let me see the muzzle of their gun comming in my direction...then it is game on. Game Over.

 

[agentl074]

Unless the BG was threatening me and/or someone else and I thought he was going to make good on the threat I don't think I would start an exchange over food or money. Watch for "sleepers" in the other patrons...no tunnel vision here. There may be more than one perp. Just don't let me see the muzzle of their gun coming in my direction...then it is game on. Game Over.

Right on man! I didnt think of possible sleepers. Situational awareness knows no bounds

 

[indyjoe]

I am sorry but I dont see how a pistol round can go 300 yards, through a wall and into a human body (several inches). He would have had to be right up to the wall. Pistol rounds just dont penetrate like rifle rounds

Going 300 yards, requires aiming 1.5 degrees higher than normal. Pretty simple. A .45 round nose, at 750 fps (reasonable at 300 yards) will retain a good deal of energy. More than enough to kill and is only slightly slowed by the vinyl siding and foam walls in most homes these days. Believing that penetration is only possible for rifle rounds sets you up for a bad situation when you expect the rounds you shoot to stay in the perp.

 

[kludge]

The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1

Pistol bullets getting stuck in the first layer of drywall on CSI is fiction.

The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2

00 buck penetrated fewer sheets of drywall than pistol bullets.

The Box O' Truth #12 - Insulated Walls - Page 4

XM-193 penetrated less than the pistol rounds in this test.

 

[SWAT-DOC]

We have done penetration test on lots of building material and houses, moble homes etc. Think of them all as "tissue paper". Expect almost nothing to stop errant rounds accept "someone" you didn't mean to shoot of course.

 

[agentl074]

Going 300 yards, requires aiming 1.5 degrees higher than normal. Pretty simple. A .45 round nose, at 750 fps (reasonable at 300 yards) will retain a good deal of energy. More than enough to kill and is only slightly slowed by the vinyl siding and foam walls in most homes these days. Believing that penetration is only possible for rifle rounds sets you up for a bad situation when you expect the rounds you shoot to stay in the perp.

Well I can only attest to what I have experienced but I know my house was built in the days of old and there is a lot of hard wood in there.

I know that from a distance of 10 feet, the .45 hardball with an advertised velocity of 850fps from a 5" barrel penetrated only a few inches into dirt and retained inside of a plastic bottle at the the same distance after glancing off of the ground. I don't know how much penetration capability a 230gr ball will have at that range ... I can only state based only upon my observations and a pistol round really does not have that much force.

According to the shooters statement - he says that he was shooting into the ground and if there was a ricochet - that would mean that the force exerted would theoretically be the same as the force which was insufficient to penetrate the plastic bottle. Just something to think about....
Know your target and what is beyond it!!!

 

[No Time to Shoot]

Going 300 yards, requires aiming 1.5 degrees higher than normal. Pretty simple. A .45 round nose, at 750 fps (reasonable at 300 yards) will retain a good deal of energy. More than enough to kill and is only slightly slowed by the vinyl siding and foam walls in most homes these days. Believing that penetration is only possible for rifle rounds sets you up for a bad situation when you expect the rounds you shoot to stay in the perp.

See my range report shooting a .40 S&W at 285 yards at bowling
4095 Range report

 

[NateIU10]

If the robber isn't threatening lives yet, I don't know if it's wise to draw your weapon and potentially start a shootout like this one. Assuming the robber was planning to just grab the money and run, then if the armed customer hadn't drawn he probably wouldn't be in the hospital with bullet holes now, and the other guy wouldn't have lost his life over a hundred bucks from a cash register. That said, if there are signs that a robber is getting too violent (which may have been the case here, I don't know), then that's probably justification for response.

Btw, I'm not saying that we should let criminals get away with this behavior, but this is the sort of thing that the liberals like to use as an example of "how armed citizens only create dangerous situations and how much safer we'd all be without them." So for our own sake, let's use our weapons in moderation.

Glock Lite. Please shoot responsibly.

The robber is threatening lives as soon as he draws a gun and asks for money. How many times have you heard stories where people cooperated with robbers, just to be shot on the way out? It doesn't always escalate before you die.

If there is an opportunity to end it, I'd end it. could you live with the person's death behind the counter? Or a person outside as the robber walks away?

Reminds me of the quote "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

 

[agentl074]

Reminds me of the quote "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Very true - Edmond Burke

 

[sporter]

Well said, sometimes its better to just stand back and be a good witness instead of endangering lives. If noone has been hurt let them take the money and go. JMO

Heck why even carry. It's safer to just hand over your wallet to the robber.

 

[esrice]

1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting

Leave it up to the news media to write a headline like this. It makes it look like the BK was the OK Corral (which is what they want).

How about "Gun-toting Citizen Saves Lives at Local Eatery"????

When you print "shooting", people automatically think of bad or negative images, instead of the good guys prevailing and the bad guys getting carried out in body bags.

 

[Dogman]

Heck why even carry. It's safer to just hand over your wallet to the robber.

Sometimes it is safer to just hand over your wallet to the robber who has a gun pointed at you, a family member, or a friend. Oh I see, you're someone that no matter what the circumstances, you'll pull out your gun and start shooting because you're so fast you can outdraw someone that has a gun pointed at you. Yeah right.

 

[agentl074]

Situational awareness is key. Why does the armed citizen have to be the only armed citizen?

In all seriousness however, it is my humble opinion that it is best not to be a hero. We (as citizens) do not get paid to be hero's - let law enforcement handle it!

You can still dial 911 and the entire event can be recorded - therefore you will be the best witness possible - you recorded it ONLY act as a LAST resort! Once again - we don't get paid to be hero's - even the hero's don't always win either....