McCarthy loses Speaker vote 3 times…

[jamil]

And again I am going to ignore your red herring.

The case against him doesn‘t hinge on whether or not the materials were classified at all, it centers on whether or not he was authorized to possess official materials privately (even while in office), and whether or not he has any right to retain them upon leaving office.

So far the courts have sided against Trump at every turn on this one, so I’m not sure why you think you have the high ground here.

The press made specific accusations that Trump had classified documents at his residence. It was part of the what the DOJ said they were investigating. Part of the justification of the raid was to look for classified documents. It's a relevant part of the conversation and not a red herring. The red herring is a belief that the president could not have those classified documents, solely because they were classified.

However, the records retention act is a relevant part of the discussion because that's really the only legitimate law that may have been broken. And that part of the case is a sticky wicket for Trump. But, it did not rise to the level of a DOJ raid unless you have a specific bias that requires Trump always to be in the wrong, regardless of facts.

The records office was aware of the documents. Trump was working with them, though, perhaps it should not have been as much a negotiation as it turned out to be. This looks more like Democrats needed some dirt so they used this as a way to justify raiding his home to get it. The courts would have been a more appropriate place for the archive apparatus to resolve any disputes over which documents were subject to the archive act. It did not require a DOJ raid.

 

[chipbennett]

And again I am going to ignore your red herring.

The case against him doesn‘t hinge on whether or not the materials were classified at all, it centers on whether or not he was authorized to possess official materials privately (even while in office), and whether or not he has any right to retain them upon leaving office.

So far the courts have sided against Trump at every turn on this one, so I’m not sure why you think you have the high ground here.

With all due respect, this conflates what is generally propagated in the media, which is not the matter of records retention generally, but rather the mishandling of classified documents.

The talking heads and social media are hyperventilating about Trump having classified documents.

 

[Ingomike]

If court writings actually mean anything to you here’s the only one that matters in this discussion: Donald J. Trump. Vs the United States of America.

The result? He lost...Bigly. 11th circuit ruled the documents in his possession belonged to the Federal Government, that they must all be returned, and that the government could use them as evidence in legal action against Trump.

This case has not been decided by SCOTUS yet and may have been settled, but it is not a standing decision like the one by judge Berman as it was not appealed.

“…the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President's term and in his sole discretion. Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office, it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records."

"Because the audiotapes are not physically in the government's possession, defendant submits that it would be required to seize them directly from President Clinton in order to assume custody and control over them. Defendant considers this to be an 'extraordinary request' that is 'unfounded, contrary to the PRA's express terms, and contrary to traditional principles of administrative law.' The Court agrees."

 

[Ingomike]

Lets pretend that the Biden Administration had records documenting all the things those wacky Qanon true believers accuse him of…should he (Biden himself) be allowed to move those documents to his basement in Delaware and claim them as “personal”?

What authority exists to tell him otherwise?

With the roles switched, does it sound as ridiculous coming from me as it does when you say it?

No it does not sound ridiculous to those that have studied the constitution and understand the powers vested in the office. Maybe some of you would be a little more particular about who they support for President and who the candidate is beholden to if they understood the power being handed over…

 

[jamil]

If court writings actually mean anything to you here’s the only one that matters in this discussion: Donald J. Trump. Vs the United States of America.

The result? He lost...Bigly. 11th circuit ruled the documents in his possession belonged to the Federal Government, that they must all be returned, and that the government could use them as evidence in legal action against Trump.

Lets pretend that the Biden Administration had records documenting all the things those wacky Qanon true believers accuse him of…should he (Biden himself) be allowed to move those documents to his basement in Delaware and claim them as “personal”?

What authority exists to tell him otherwise?

With the roles switched, does it sound as ridiculous coming from me as it does when you say it?

Well, the QAnon quip is a bit dated. So that's ridiculous. What's the Qanon equivalent on the other side?

 

[jamil]

No it does not sound ridiculous to those that have studied the constitution and understand the powers vested in the office. Maybe some of you would be a little more particular about who they support for President and who the candidate is beholden to if they understood the power being handed over…

Those documents were from the 0Bama administration. Biden did not have the authority to take those documents. I suppose now, as POTUS he could proclaim it's okey-dokey. But he still broke the law by having those records at his house prior. Unless Biden gets 0bama to claim that he declared those records were Joe's and that it was okay with him if Joe them in open boxes next to his Corvette if he wants to.

Nah. I think it violates the Presidential Records Act.

 

[Ingomike]

Those documents were from the 0Bama administration. Biden did not have the authority to take those documents. I suppose now, as POTUS he could proclaim it's okey-dokey. But he still broke the law by having those records at his house prior. Unless Biden gets 0bama to claim that he declared those records were Joe's and that it was okay with him if Joe them in open boxes next to his Corvette if he wants to.

Nah. I think it violates the Presidential Records Act.

I completely agree with this. I was responding to lefty’s hypothetical, trying to play gotcha, by reversing Trump and Bidet in the same situation as Trump was in. I was trying to make the point that some here do not understand the power the constitution vests in the office along with millions of sheeple. Maybe if they did they would not elect mentally deficient manchurian candidates.

And yes, if obummer stepped up to the press and said he declassified those docs and gave them to Joe, we have no choice but to to accept that as fact, unless someone produces evidence they were obtained after the administration was over…

 

[Ingomike]

No wonder the spin meisters can spin the sheeple, it is almost as if many believe there is some super committee, that can rule over the President, that handles classified documents, not that the President alone is at the top of the pyramid…

 

[Knight Rider]

Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but it is my understanding that the National Archives new Trump had those docs. It has been suggested that they were also responsible for packing them up for shipment to the compound. I’ve not seen any reporting where the National Archives had a clue about the Biden docs.

At work I can’t even check out a CAD file without the system logging it was me and what changes are made. Don’t classified docs require some level of tracking as to who last “officially“ handled them and where they were located? Seems like a quick review of that info would clear up chain of custody. Last schmuck on record of handling the docs is on the hook for where they end up being found. If that was the POTUS at the time, end of conversation. If it wasn’t, rain fire until the truth is known.

 

[KG1]

I completely agree with this. I was responding to lefty’s hypothetical, trying to play gotcha, by reversing Trump and Bidet in the same situation as Trump was in. I was trying to make the point that some here do not understand the power the constitution vests in the office along with millions of sheeple. Maybe if they did they would not elect mentally deficient manchurian candidates.

And yes, if obummer stepped up to the press and said he declassified those docs and gave them to Joe, we have no choice but to to accept that as fact, unless someone produces evidence they were obtained after the administration was over…

Obama could certainly do that but it's so far after the fact now that it would not pass the proverbial smell test if he were to do so. I'm not so certain he would even do that to bail Bidiot out anyway. If he were so inclined I would think he would have done so by now. IMO I don't think he wants to get mixed up in the middle of all this and possibly draw attention to himself.

 

[Ingomike]

Obama could certainly do that but it's so far after the fact now that it would not pass the proverbial smell test if he were to do so. I'm not so certain he would even do that to bail Bidiot out anyway. If he were so inclined I would think he would have done so by now. IMO I don't think he wants to get mixed up in the middle of all this.

Agreed. It was just an example of the power vested in the office. If folks do not see this as a left organized hit on bidet they are not paying attention, no obummer alibi for Joe.

 

[KG1]

Agreed. It was just an example of the power vested in the office. If folks do not see this as a left organized hit on bidet they are not paying attention, no obummer alibi for Joe.

Exactly and without that alibi to back him up he had absolutely no authority as VP to possess those documents. That is the biggest difference between his situation and Trumps.

 

[Ingomike]

Exactly and without that alibi to back him up he had absolutely no authority as VP to possess those documents. That is the biggest difference between his situation and Trumps.

Yep, TPTB are using this to push him out and it has the added bonus of putting the whole Trump docs allegations in the media again. Dems will crucify bidet as a way to look principled, eliminate bidet, and besmirch republicans and MAGA supporters…

 

[BugI02]

Again I ask, who has this authority to tell a President how to declassify documents?

And again I am going to ignore your red herring [valid but inconvenient question]

Fixy

 

[BugI02]

Well, the QAnon quip is a bit dated. So that's ridiculous. What's the Qanon equivalent on the other side?

Paul Pelosi explaining the hammer party and why they both were only in their underwear?

 

[mmpsteve]

In my opinion only, "mishandling of classified documents", i.e. mere possession of said classified documents, does not rise to the impeachable level of "high crimes and misdemeanors".

Maybe not by itself, the 'mishandling', but the subject matter of the documents matter, IMO. This may be common knowledge now, but Dan Bongino just said the Biden documents contained Ukraine/Hunter/BidenFamily documents. Just a coincidence, their being found in an associated garage. The details matter, in terms of how it's handled after the discovery.

.

 

[LeftyGunner]

With all due respect, this conflates what is generally propagated in the media, which is not the matter of records retention generally, but rather the mishandling of classified documents.

The talking heads and social media are hyperventilating about Trump having classified documents.

Chip, I agree.

The media tells the story they think people will buy. At worst it is outright fiction, but even at best it isn‘t factual reporting… it’s more akin to, IDK, creative journalism.

They hyperventilate as a matter of routine at this point, lol.

I think, and this is just my opinion here, the classified document angle makes for an easier story to write. I just don’t think the document retention angle was sexy enough for the modern press…they want blood.

The truth may not be getting attention from the commercial media, but elements of it are slipping into public view. The search warrant, associated affidavit, and resulting legal actions reveal:
-The DOJ is conducting an investigation into Trump based on claims made by NARA that the former president was in possession of federal records that he refused to return in possible violation of 18 USC 793, 2071, and 1519. None of these charges hinge on the classification of the federal records in question.
-The DOJ performed a search under warrant and retrieved a number of those same documents, including some with intact classification markings.
-Trump sued to have all the seized materials returned, but the 11th Circuit ruled that all of the materials were legally collected, that any remaining federal records must be returned immediately, and that the DOJ may use these materials in legal action against Trump. The decision was not appealed, and the Judge that allowed the suit was forced to abandon her proceedings in humiliation for lack of jurisdiction.

It looks to me like the Executive Branch is claiming that presidential record belong to the office, not the man…and that the Judicial branch agrees. In light of this perspective the classification of the documents really is just a red herring.

 

[Ingomike]

Chip, I agree.

The media tells the story they think people will buy. At worst it is outright fiction, but even at best it isn‘t factual reporting… it’s more akin to, IDK, creative journalism.

They hyperventilate as a matter of routine at this point, lol.

I think, and this is just my opinion here, the classified document angle makes for an easier story to write. I just don’t think the document retention angle was sexy enough for the modern press…they want blood.

The truth may not be getting attention from the commercial media, but elements of it are slipping into public view. The search warrant, associated affidavit, and resulting legal actions reveal:
-The DOJ is conducting an investigation into Trump based on claims made by NARA that the former president was in possession of federal records that he refused to return in possible violation of 18 USC 793, 2071, and 1519. None of these charges hinge on the classification of the federal records in question.
-The DOJ performed a search under warrant and retrieved a number of those same documents, including some with intact classification markings.
-Trump sued to have all the seized materials returned, but the 11th Circuit ruled that all of the materials were legally collected, that any remaining federal records must be returned immediately, and that the DOJ may use these materials in legal action against Trump. The decision was not appealed, and the Judge that allowed the suit was forced to abandon her proceedings in humiliation for lack of jurisdiction.

It looks to me like the Executive Branch is claiming that presidential record belong to the office, not the man…and that the Judicial branch agrees. In light of this perspective the classification of the documents really is just a red herring.

Got it. You still believe in Santa Clause and a nonpartisan DOJ.

 

[LeftyGunner]

Got it. You still believe in Santa Clause and a nonpartisan DOJ.

Got it. You still believe in ad hominem.

 

[bwframe]