Mass Shooters..the real problem?

[j706]

I have been researching a commonality among mass killers that does not and will not get much air time with the left wing pukes. Mild altering prescription drugs. Anti depressants and stuff like that. We in the LE occupation have to deal with these type of people regularly.

In my experience it goes something like this....little Johny has never had any discipline from his single mother. Mostly because she never had any discipline when she was growing up. Little Johny has never heard the word no. Mom takes him to the Dr.s office and tells the doctor that Johny is not doing well in school, he is acting out ect. Dr prescribes medication Ritalin for ADHD. Johny calms down,start loosing weigh ect. and spends his time playing the video games. He never goes outside, he looks all pale and over the next few years he is just plain weird to most normal folks.

Fast forward a few years, still no discipline, doing poorly in school and basically a social degenerate. Then being all depressed for various reasons he gets prescribed anti depressants. Later he goes on anti psychotic drugs. All this works to keep him dragged down. Then one day he gets tired of taking the stuff for whatever reason. That is when we get involved.

I don't know all the steps to the problem but it is a problem I assure you. Like I stated above, anyone in the LEO occupation deals with these kind of people weekly. I am learning that many if not most mass killers have been on this stuff or was on it and stopped taking them. Research the subject. I think you might be quite surprised. Just thought I would share this as I never read or hear about it. They always blame the guns. I am not saying these drugs don't have a legitimate use or that all people on them are nuts. But I do believe they are way over used as a cure for simple problems.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[canav844]

Until the drug companies stop funding campaigns, it won't make any consideration in the halls of congress because that might be a difficult discussion. So I doubt we'll see any change on psychopath attacks anytime soon, from guns to knives to truck bombs.

Here's a thread from last week on the same topic: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...e_of_antidepressants_in_school_shootings.html

 

[IndyDave1776]

This is a most excellent observation. The unfortunate truth is that the political narrative is being shaped around an agenda which has been shaped over a long period of time operating as a solution looking for a problem. Those in positions of influence want more control for which disarmament of the people is necessary at the level of authoritarian control they want. Controlling sociopaths and/or controlling dangerous mind-altering drugs does not help with that agenda. Blaming guns in a feeding frenzy worthy of Tina Turner's performance in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome is.

In order to understand someone else's solution, it is necessary to understand that person's perceived problem. As it is, the gun grabbers are indifferent about public safety, and in fact need dangerous criminals performing shocking crimes in order to keep the sheep huddled under their evil grip for the false promise of safety. They simply want control over the useful people. Criminals are rarely useful for any productive purpose, and the politicians have found one area in which criminals run amok are useful to them--and all of this at the expense of our liberty and personal safety.

 

[PistolBob]

Another common trait is being raised with no father in the house.

 

[CarmelHP]

The problem with this analysis is that you are blaming the drugs. Many severely mentally ill people have psychopathologies that are masked by depression that keeps them from acting on their more violent impulses. When treated for the depression the other latent tendencies emerge and they are then able to act on them.

 

[indykid]

Lack of father, lack of family, lack of morals being taught by two parents. Vicious cycle that can be stopped by something that this country was told by a president a while back isn't needed, responsibility. Two parents take responsibility for bringing up the child that they brought into the world, and teaching moral responsibility to that child.

Sorry Ex-President Clinton, it takes a family, not a village you idiot!

 

[VikingWarlord]

Thoughts anyone?

Well, I have two thoughts.

1) We (humans) have such little understanding of how neurochemistry actually works that it's impossible to say. Psychiatric medication isn't an exact science and the scientific community is learning new things about how the brain works, what causes neurochemical issues, and how best to deal with them on an individual basis.

I'm sure there are some lazy parents who want to drug their kids but, largely, that isn't the goal of the medical community at large.

2) I'd bet that there are few, if any, members this site who have either the education or experience necessary in pharmacology or psychiatric medicine to provide any sort of meaningful insight.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

JetGirl had a link to a chart that presented various massacres where the murderer had been associated with these types of drugs:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break_room/257152-so_its_data_they_want_hmmm_ok.html

But the link doesn't seem to be working now.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Well, I have two thoughts.

1) We (humans) have such little understanding of how neurochemistry actually works that it's impossible to say. Psychiatric medication isn't an exact science and the scientific community is learning new things about how the brain works, what causes neurochemical issues, and how best to deal with them on an individual basis.

I'm sure there are some lazy parents who want to drug their kids but, largely, that isn't the goal of the medical community at large.

2) I'd bet that there are few, if any, members this site who have either the education or experience necessary in pharmacology or psychiatric medicine to provide any sort of meaningful insight.

Most of us may lack the technical knowledge necessary for a discussion on the specific effects of such drugs on the human mind, but Ray Charles could see that doping children up has become an accepted alternative to discipline and we certainly don't understand the consequences nearly well enough to be playing with fire in such a manner.

 

[j706]

Well, I have two thoughts.

1) We (humans) have such little understanding of how neurochemistry actually works that it's impossible to say. Psychiatric medication isn't an exact science and the scientific community is learning new things about how the brain works, what causes neurochemical issues, and how best to deal with them on an individual basis.

I'm sure there are some lazy parents who want to drug their kids but, largely, that isn't the goal of the medical community at large.

2) I'd bet that there are few, if any, members this site who have either the education or experience necessary in pharmacology or psychiatric medicine to provide any sort of meaningful insight.

I have to say I have zero understanding of what neurochemistry even is much less how it works. Way above my pay grade. But I do know of a number of parents and a number of single parent family's that I actually believe just don't want to deal with the hassle of raising their kids. They are more interested in partying all night ect.

Some of these family's kids are on this mental drug stuff. When (for whatever reason) they are not taking the stuff a few of them a plain spooky in the way they act and think. A few of them are routinely handfuls. I know of one in the area I work that has been tased 5 different times on five different incidents. Thirty something still living off his mom who is scared to death of him. When we go to his home we all know we had better have our game face on and be bringing some help. Also worth noting this guy has guns too....a lot of them. They were taken from him once for a while. Once he was taking his medicine for a while the court ordered them returned. It would not surprise me in the least if he killed someone someday...maybe one of us. He hates us and thinks we are after him.

FWIW I think almost everyone knows of someone that if you heard they had killed someone (or a bunch of someones) then you wouldn't be surprised. It seems that most of that type that I know of are taking that stuff. I have nothing to back it up but I really think these medications are over prescribed. I think they are used as a crutch for other issues. I might be all wrong. But it is VERY common.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Most of us may lack the technical knowledge necessary for a discussion on the specific effects of such drugs on the human mind, but Ray Charles could see that doping children up has become an accepted alternative to discipline and we certainly don't understand the consequences nearly well enough to be playing with fire in such a manner.

Yep, kids act up put them on drugs to control them instead of doing it the old fashion way of punishing them. I am not going to say some of these drugs do not help certain kids but the Ritalin the prescribe these days is outrageous. Gordon Liddy had a guest with a simple test to see if a kids had ADD. If a kid can play a video game for hours on end he doesn't have ADD, he is bored with what is being forced upon him.

 

[Smokepole]

I have to say I have zero understanding of what neurochemistry even is much less how it works. Way above my pay grade. But I do know of a number of parents and a number of single parent family's that I actually believe just don't want to deal with the hassle of raising their kids. They are more interested in partying all night ect.

Some of these family's kids are on this mental drug stuff. When (for whatever reason) they are not taking the stuff a few of them a plain spooky in the way they act and think. A few of them are routinely handfuls. I know of one in the area I work that has been tased 5 different times on five different incidents. Thirty something still living off his mom who is scared to death of him. When we go to his home we all know we had better have our game face on and be bringing some help. Also worth noting this guy has guns too....a lot of them. They were taken from him once for a while. Once he was taking his medicine for a while the court ordered them returned. It would not surprise me in the least if he killed someone someday...maybe one of us. He hates us and thinks we are after him.

FWIW I think almost everyone knows of someone that if you heard they had killed someone (or a bunch of someones) then you wouldn't be surprised. It seems that most of that type that I know of are taking that stuff. I have nothing to back it up but I really think these medications are over prescribed. I think they are used as a crutch for other issues. I might be all wrong. But it is VERY common.

Good points here. I don't have the necessary education to discuss this subject at the clinical level either, but I do have a kid with ADHD. We don't use Ritalin or it's cousins but do use low dose Zoloft. It helps some. She is more manageable. Things would have to be real bad for us to consider stronger meds. I don't like having a child on daily drugs. Never wanted that for any of my kids. We still have our problems with her and she requires a vastly different management style than my other two. But we work through it.

Now that I have gone off track, I have read in several places where the use of depressants in severely depressed people have seen significant increases in the incidence of suicidal tendencies and deaths from suicide. And from desperate suicide it isn't that great of a leap to homicide as it would be for a normal person.

We also have lost almost all of the state run mental health facilities across the country, leaving most of the people that should be in them on the streets. Not a good recipe for a safe society and a good case for personal protection devices ie: guns. "Cause some of them folk is NUTS and dangerous.

 

[Smokepole]

Yep, kids act up put them on drugs to control them instead of doing it the old fashion way of punishing them. I am not going to say some of these drugs do not help certain kids but the Ritalin the prescribe these days is outrageous. Gordon Liddy had a guest with a simple test to see if a kids had ADD. If a kid can play a video game for hours on end he doesn't have ADD, he is bored with what is being forced upon him.

And Liddy got his Psychiatric medical degree from where?

Don't get me wrong, I like Gordon, but like those of us here that don't have medical degrees, neither does he. But I do have a kid with ADD. And their brain chemistry isn't quite the same as others. They just aren't wired the same.

 

[Bunnykid68]

And Liddy got his Psychiatric medical degree from where?

Don't get me wrong, I like Gordon, but like those of us here that don't have medical degrees, neither does he. But I do have a kid with ADD. And their brain chemistry isn't quite the same as others. They just aren't wired the same.

My point is if a kid can play a video game for hours on end it aint ADD or they wouldn't be able to play a game for hours on end. The simple act of doing something for hours at a time is contradictory to Attention Deficit Disorder.

 

[Movealongmovealong]

What the OP described is very commonly a trigger for psychotic behavior. Unfortunately (or highly fortunately, if you work for or own stock in a large pharma co.), anti-depressants are vastly, vastly over-prescribed. It is well-known that many of them can cause self-destructive behavior, including suicide. The dosage of anti-depressants to be effective is often quite high, but must be very gradually increased over the course of many months, if not years, and for a patient to be safely taken off of them, the dosage must be appropriately and gradually reduced as well. HOWEVER, if a person on a relatively strong dosage of one of the common anti-depressants decides to stop taking the medication, cold turkey, this can throw the body into a SEVERE withdrawal and cause all kinds of psychiatric problems. All of this is very well known and understood.

It has been well-documented for years now that the use of most anti-depressants without concomitant behavioral therapy does virtually NO GOOD, except for predisposing patients to very significant potential for side-effects including, yes, violent behavior and self-destructive behavior (possible suicide).

If you add on top of that a parent or parents and/or others who are neglectful, abusive, isolating, along with lack of proper nutrition and sleep (one of the most common signs of depression is poor sleep)... well you have a well-known recipe for disaster.

Psychosocial isolation is known as perhaps the most mentally destructive thing you can do to a human brain. This is why it is so commonly used to "break" people (prisoners, torture, etc.). It sounded like this Lanza kid was getting virtually no social interaction aside from his mother, who by all accounts was extremely unknowledgeable about how to deal with his Asperger's Syndrome and quite abusive. He was also apparently under no professional mental health treatment despite the fact that his family had lots and lots of money, and his mother was thinking about having him committed to a mental institution. That's a BIG red flag that something is wrong.

When I heard about this Lanza kid, looked at him, and started reading about him, it didn't strike me as odd at all that he flipped his schmit. On the contrary, if someone like him acted completely mentally healthy, I would be extremely surprised, and I have to say, this is frequently the case when I read about people with serious mental health problems.

 

[Tsigos]

My theory? [puts flame suit on] - The shooters are having trouble coping with an uncertain future in the face of widespread societal pessimism.

Many kids are constantly being told that they will be less successful than their parents, the world is collapse etc. In the case of the Newtown shooter, if his mom was indeed a "prepper", he may have even been told that the economy may collapse at any second and he needs to start stockpiling food and weapons and be prepared to kill friends and neighbors WTSHTF. All terrible messages to feed a child in their formative years.

I believe the lack of optimism and hope for the future causes these kids to want to go out in a blaze of glory rather than hang around to see what the future will bring.

Note also that the shooters are invariably white males which, as a group, likely feel the most threatened by the rapid pace of societal changes and the uncertainty it brings.

Just my speculative but feel free to flame away.

 

[j706]

All of these posts should be what this new commision should be taking a very strong look at. But we all know they already have their marching orders and a clear cut agenda. They could ban every gun and magazine known to man and it wont change a thing.

Please dont take my OP as knocking anyone that really needs these type of drugs. That was not my intent. They do have a place. For those that need them I am glad they can get them. My younger sister died of cancer last May. She was put on anti depresent medication once they determined she had terminal cancer. Anti depresent and other drugs helped her alot. I was very thankful for that.

 

[Bunnykid68]

All of these posts should be what this new commision should be taking a very strong look at. But we all know they already have their marching orders and a clear cut agenda. They could ban every gun and magazine known to man and it wont change a thing.

Please dont take my OP as knocking anyone that really needs these type of drugs. That was not my intent. They do have a place. For those that need them I am glad they can get them. My younger sister died of cancer last May. She was put on anti depresent medication once they determined she had terminal cancer. Anti depresent and other drugs helped her alot. I was very thankful for that.

J706- I did not take your post as knocking anyone and I am sure no one else did. This is a topic that needs to be discussed repeatedly. 20 years ago how many people even knew what Ritalin was, now everyone knows someone that has/is on it.

 

[IndyDave1776]

My theory? [puts flame suit on] - The shooters are having trouble coping with an uncertain future in the face of widespread societal pessimism.

Many kids are constantly being told that they will be less successful than their parents, the world is collapse etc. In the case of the Newtown shooter, if his mom was indeed a "prepper", he may have even been told that the economy may collapse at any second and he needs to start stockpiling food and weapons and be prepared to kill friends and neighbors WTSHTF. All terrible messages to feed a child in their formative years.

I believe the lack of optimism and hope for the future causes these kids to want to go out in a blaze of glory rather than hang around to see what the future will bring.

Note also that the shooters are invariably white males which, as a group, likely feel the most threatened by the rapid pace of societal changes and the uncertainty it brings.

Just my speculative but feel free to flame away.

I would say that your thoughts have a significant amount of merit. Personally, I take a very pessimistic view of the future, but hold to the notion that one should not be afraid of the dark but rather prepared for it--sort of a dark optimism. Believing that the sky is falling with nothing on the other side of it, drifting into an indefinite dystopian future that makes the present look like a golden age and Mad Max seem like a peaceful and orderly mode of living would certainly drain the hope from many, especially those who are not of the strongest personal constitution to begin with. While I don't believe in suppressing the truth, including indicators of a rough future, I also believe that it is a truth that needs to be handled carefully, especially where children and the emotionally vulnerable are concerned. Truth is what it is, your interpretation may vary, but regardless, it need not be handled like a bludgeon, especially with the weak in terms of age, maturity, and mental soundness.

 

[Twangbanger]

Most antidepressants in the U.S. are prescribed by a family physician with no background in mental health, and without any psychiatric diagnosis having been made (about three-fourths, according to 2005 data). They can be prescribed for patients as young as age 6. From what I have been able to find out, no country allows such widespread use of ADs in children as the U.S. does (according to the last info I saw, Canada, for example, does not approve them for use in children younger than 19).


Notice, also, that school shooters are usually from affluent families...families who can afford the several hundred dollars per month in copays for these drugs.


My suspicion is, there's a small minority of children who are severely emotionally disturbed, their parents (being human) are in a semi-state of denial about it, are overwhelmed by it, don't want to see their baby locked up, and see the availability of these drugs as a path of least resistance, a way to keep their kid from being institutionalized. So, if they can afford it, they do it.


I suspect these drugs are a "band-aid" for that small number of severely disturbed kids, and are not a viable long-term substitute for "real" mental health care in these types of cases. Eventually the kid grows to an age where the adult + drugs cannot control him anymore, and then, you get one of these rampages.


I think we need to make use of these drugs in children under 18 subject to prescription _only_ by a licensed mental health professional, someone who looks at these kinds of things all the time, and have oversight by social workers who can check with the school principal to see if it's going ok, as well as keeping big-picture statistics on the outcomes to see what works (since this is a subject affecting the health and well-being of society in general).


I do know what doesn't seem to work: allowing overwhelmed mommies to get antidepressants for their severely disturbed kids from the same doctor who treats stuffy noses, with no accountability or oversight. In these limited number of Lanza-type cases, there needs to be some mechanism for steering these kids into REAL psychiatric treatment, and not just allowing Mom to use drugs dispensed by family doctors as a band-aid for not dealing with the problem.

And I fear that once Obamacare expands access to this type of drug - we're going to see even more of it. My guess is, a lot of the "poor" kids whose parents can't afford drugs for them are currently winding up in trouble with the law and locked up in jail, where they can't harm society. Once we expand access to this "band-aid solution" of antidepressants to people of all income levels...whoa, look out.


It's unfortunate that the pharmaceutical industry, via a product distribution pipeline consisting of doctors with little to no background in mental health, has for the most part taken over the front-line administration of mental health care in this country. (And the Dianne Feinsteins of the world apparently aren't willing to raise the subject, for fear of crossing their wealthy corporate benefactors).